AIR1 v AIR2 v Spark

[Womaz]

I also find this very frustrating. Seven months after getting the 200 I still don't use it as it was intended. Actually not strictly true as I can get AIR uninterrupted if I move PC into my main hifi room.
I have been close on a few occasions to just buying a network player and be done with it, but to be honest I am after some new headphones and would prefer to put the cash towards them. Also the sound quality of AIR is quite simply the best I have ever had or heard from a hifi, so I guess not wanting to spend a couple of grand on something that may actually produce inferior SQ. Hoping Dialog will sound as good.

I can only assume it's not a priority for Devialet as they would have undoubtedly sorted this.

[Rufus McDufus]

Going back to AIR1 vs AIR2, I *think* AIR1 was software more natively tailored for Mac, probably compiled C/C++ hooking into the OS's libraries directly. AIR2 is based on the QT framework which gives them portability to other operating systems and more rapid development time, but on the downside leaves them exposed to any bugs or problems there may be in the QT framework's libraries, method of compilation etc. And AIR being a fairly atypical application, it's not totally impossible they're doing things with it & placing requirements on it that not many developers have done before and I suspect they're finding problems as a result. A similar thing happened with Linn and the Mono framework for Kinsky - they were stuck & powerless on waiting for the Mono developers to fix problems in the framework.
Just a hunch of mine but I've seen this situation quite a few times.

[Jean-Marie]

The main problem with AIR 1 was the way it was interacting with iTunes.
It was using apple events, but it was not something that was vetted by Apple and therefore there was no guarantee that it would continue to work over time. If you remember during the lifetime of AIR 1, one iTunes update had already triggered that situation.
I agree that 'shipping the file' as AIR1 was doing is the most satisfactory because it eliminate every thing SQ wise before the Devialet itself.
This is certainly how Spark is working, with the difference being that Spark also provides the UI, with all the pluses and minuses.

I don't know if the interaction between the dialog and an expert will be true an audio stream sent over USB, therefore requiring no software update of the expert or if they will be using something else. (My guess is it will be a standard audio stream, but my crustal ball has been prone wrong at least 50% of the time.)
I suspect that supporting the expert line through spark and dialog is harder than phantom because unlike phantom which was green field, the first thing the expert population will do is compare it to their current solutions. And there are many, so I suspect the minimum feature set required for a launch with expert is larger, so I would not be surprised if the USB aspect and interworking with expert was not the gating factor.

[Music or sound]

OK - It looks like no one can answer why it takes a team of French geniuses over a year to implement USB output on the Dialog?  So here is my theory ....

The world is full of USB drivers, and the USB input to the Devialet is pretty much industry standard.  How hard can it be?  I wonder if Devialet, who I believe are selling Dialog almost at cost (it is cheap), are worried about people using Dialog with other DAC / amplifier combinations?   Maybe they did have a working USB output back in February, then someone said, "hang on, this will work with anything, people will buy it because it's cheap, use it with any old amplifier (not a nice expensive / profitable Devialet one), and we'll be inundated with queries regarding spark whilest making no cash".  Just a theory.....

If ultimately the Dialog does gain expert compatibility with the Expert range, but it is some kind on non standard implementation that will not work with any old USB DAC, I would say theory confirmed and I am a genius!  If not, then I am happy to remain an idiot with an over active imagination sometimes......

So if Devialet is worried that a Dialog will subsidize other USB DACs why they do not develop a ethernet connection form Dialog (version 2) to the expert range which is anyhow a better way to connect than USB

[IanG-UK]

OK - It looks like no one can answer why it takes a team of French geniuses over a year to implement USB output on the Dialog?  So here is my theory ....

The world is full of USB drivers, and the USB input to the Devialet is pretty much industry standard.  How hard can it be?  I wonder if Devialet, who I believe are selling Dialog almost at cost (it is cheap), are worried about people using Dialog with other DAC / amplifier combinations?   Maybe they did have a working USB output back in February, then someone said, "hang on, this will work with anything, people will buy it because it's cheap, use it with any old amplifier (not a nice expensive / profitable Devialet one), and we'll be inundated with queries regarding spark whilest making no cash".  Just a theory.....

If ultimately the Dialog does gain expert compatibility with the Expert range, but it is some kind on non standard implementation that will not work with any old USB DAC, I would say theory confirmed and I am a genius!  If not, then I am happy to remain an idiot with an over active imagination sometimes......

So if Devialet is worried that a Dialog will subsidize other USB DACs why they do not develop a ethernet connection form Dialog (version 2) to the expert range which is anyhow a better way to connect than USB

Well, when Devialet announced Dialog, pre launch and pre pictures, the promise was Phantom first, Expert via USB second and Expert via Ethernet and Wifi third. Though the socketry does not lend itself to all that?

[ThierryNK]

Hi

I got emails from some of you to invite me to participate to this thread. This is very nice, sympathetic and flattering, but the topic is difficult, and I do not know everything about AIR and Devialet, I had one D-Premier at home during 2 weeks to try to understand what was wrong with AIR Wifi, then some people brought me, quite recently D200 to evaluate the audio performance, and I have some friends that have D200 or D800.

Here are what I think I know, and NOT what I know for sure, I can be wrong. Consider all that follows somewhere between facts for experiments and hypothesis for other things.

AIR WIFI
AIR WIFI was very fragile on the D-Premier. Not only for dropouts, but from simple network implementation.
A port scan, sending some bytes on every port of Devialet Wifi interface, made the interface crash, with the obligation of reboot.
There was only 1 Wifi signal seen seen by my Wifi scanner, and it was mine. So no Wifi interference.
The Wifi access point was 2 meters from the D-Premier, in direct view, so no Wifi communication issue.
From my point of view, it is only a very bad implementation of network protocols.
If a port scan could make the Devialet interface crash, then any Wifi traffic could make the interface crash.

I DO NOT KNOW is this has been corrected by Devialet.
2 weeks ago, at a friend's, on a standalone Wifi network (no other stuff connected to this Wifi), with 0 other Wifi network, with a one meter distance between Devialet D800 and the wifi access point, there were still dropouts.

When I went to Maison Devialet one year ago, Devialet people advised me not to use Wifi.

AIR
To my knowledge, the computer has ALWAYS been the place where track decoding happens.
Because
- there seems that there is no chip in Devialet able to do track decoding.
- sniffing what was sent on network showed that it is not files that are transmitted
- UPNP would have been implemented in one week

In first implementation of AIR, track decoding was made by Devialet Software on the computer, iTunes being the interface, exactly as in Audirvana first version. This is coherent with the fact that they could do 24/192 at a time when iTunes was not able of 24/192.
But writing an audio software is a full time job, with real software, hardware, OS Kernel, APIs, etc,  experts. Not the core competencies of Devialet teams (to my knowledge)

So, to my knowledge Devialet stopped making the track decoding, relying on external audio softwares, iTunes, Audirvana, Foobar, etc, at a time when iTunes was also updated to read 24/192 tracks.
And I definitively think it is a very good decision. (By the way, I think that Roon makes the opposite mistake by developing an audio software, when their added value is elsewhere with databases coherent accesses, tags, etc, their bashing of UPNP just shows that either they do not know anything about audio and UPNP, either it is a dirty marketing position)

Devialet kept (or improved)  their audio transfer protocol. And I have the feeling that it is something very similar to USB transfer protocol, sent by ethernet or USB.

White noise
Sorry guys, but I do not have a clue about it, and I never experimented it, I do not have a Devialet at home.

Kind regards

[IanG-UK]

Thank you Thierry, it is very kind of you to respond.

Devialet are understandably reluctant to admit to shortcomings with AIR1 and AIR2, other than indirectly, specifically by using USB in Munich this year having previously used AIR wifi or AIR ethernet.

Having said "the best cable is no cable", they will need to recast their marketing - probably by the eventual compatibility of Expert with Dialog, with AIR possibly left to fade away!

[warpeon]

Thierry, thank you for sharing. Just to clarify, does this mean expert will never be able to do upnp/dlna natively? We will rely on AIR, dialog, or other streamer?

[Womaz]

Great to get that reply, but it does not fill me with any hope that AIR will be sorted. Looks like there are too many variables outside of Devialets control. That is a massive shame if it is. I would just love some clarification on this. I am taking it that Dialog will use different parameters to AIR. ie USB, so wont have the drop outs and white noise. Why the delay then? or is it not as simple as that.

I am trying to be patient waiting for Dialog, but seven months after buying the 200 I am no further forward and I keep procastinating and procastinating about a streamer solution. I do change my mind almost every week, as I miss having my whole CD collection on hand.

[ThierryNK]

Can someone explain, as precisely as possible, with all parameters, when "white noise" happens?
I read some posts about it on french forums, but I did not really understand what was happening.

I can also say that with a good drive on Devialet AES input, some friends are vey happy (3DLab Nano Transport, Bel Canto Refstream or Totaldac d1-server). And they get good ergonomics with Jriver and Jremote or EOS application, or Minimserver + bubbleupnpserver with Lumin or Bubbleupnp applications.

I rencently tested the new Etalon Streamer (550€), only USB output, UPNP/LM/Airplay inputs, with is really very good. It can be improved by Swenson' Regen.
No tested on Devialet, but on high end and entry level DACs.

My feeling is that people happy with Devialet sound but who have inputs issues, should try to get around the issues, instead of waiting upgrades.
Ok, it is more money to spend. The ultimate decision could be to get a full refund.
If Devialet has more returned products, maybe they will put more money on technologies and less in airplanes tickets to invite stars and chief editors to meet the Phantom.

Ok, I am a bit rude. I just try to be sincere about my own thinking.

Kind regards