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Bass response - how deep should my speakers go for a lifelike sound at home?
#11
(07-Jul-2015, 20:10)f1eng Wrote:
(07-Jul-2015, 19:39)Antoine Wrote: Subwoofers are not just about low frequency extension. Subwoofers allow one to even the bass response in a room without compromising optimal main loudspeaker setup. The best spot for a speaker in regard to (for example and not limited to) stereo imaging is hardly ever the best spot for the best bass response.

Low frequencies cause the biggest acoustic troubles (and the hardest to "fix") in most (all!?) rooms but the good thing about them is that below a certain frequency treshold (some say 80Hz, some a bit more or less) the human hearing can't locate the exact origin of low frequencies which makes it possible to place one or more subs and place these at the best spots in a room for LF reproduction while at the same time optimal main LS placement after off loading LF reproduction from these mains.

After having owned multiple full range loudspeakers I today would probably buy smaller loudspeakers with less LF extension and augment them with multiple subwoofers. And these would not all need to go down to the lowest sub bass frequencies!

I think that most people with average musical preferences and average rooms after having heard a proper sub, properly setup so that it blends in well, would prefer to not go back to a regular setup without a sub. (a/one sub can of course be substituted for multiple subs in this sentence).

You are quite right about the bass in room, of course.
Personally I think a single sub is hopeless though, it is impossible to position for good bass in a large part of the room, and if using calculated correction one can only get it reasonably right in one part of the room, and it is very often worse everywhere else.
I tend to agree that having smaller main speakers and 4 subwoofers would probably give the best overall bass even-ness in room, but so far I have heard very, very few speakers or subwoofers which have realistic sounding bass, whether even or not. When I spent a couple of years 20 years ago auditioning speakers with an almost limitless budget I found that realistic bass could be reproduced (I had previously accepted that it was impossible domestically) but very, very few of these very expensive speakers did it.
Plenty of extension was available with all of them at this price, but realistic?, almost none.

I'm not sure if one single sub in a room paired with DSP (especially one that doesn't try to boost dips/nulls) is any or much worse in bass evenness than a pair of speakers. I guess that depends on the setup of both, but of course more LF sources would be better which was exactly one of my points as well.

Personally I set up my system for best sound at a certain sweet spot and don't really care about the rest of the room.
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#12
Me too . sweet spot is the sweet spot.. I tried 2 subs with my Giya g1's , but the G1's go so low, it was a little bit of a waste and didnt really do much at all . I did try them as "node busters" , kind of worked but gave no appreciable improvement in my sound.
With other speakers I have had , twin + subs worked real well..
What I have found using subs is that the ambient cues seem to be revealed and there is a distinct improvement in soundstage width and depth...
Im using DIRAC for low bass control these days.
A lot depends on the room , treatments and levels you like to play at.. I listen loud (lifelike levels) and a lot of electronica and other music I listen to is bass heavy...
If my bass isnt right , then it makes no difference to me as to the rest of the spectrum, boomy bass ruins it for me..
Roon/tidal > Squeezebox touch  > Trinnov St2 or DIRAC (minidsp ddrc-22d) > Dual mono D premiers > Vivid Audio Giya G1 Spirits  ...fully treated  dedicated 6x8m room
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#13
You run g1's so i dont find that very surprising that subs dont help much!

Ive just recieved 2 jl audio 12 inch subs today and am going to be setting them up over the weekend so ill have something to report in here! Hoping they compliment my vivid b1s nicely Smile
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#14
(10-Jul-2015, 13:33)completeluxury Wrote: You run g1's so i dont find that very surprising that subs dont help much!

Ive just recieved 2 jl audio 12 inch subs today and am going to be setting them up over the weekend so ill have something to report in here! Hoping they compliment my vivid b1s nicely Smile

An interesting combination!  Isn't this an unusually high speaker to sub cost ratio?  Might be fun though ....
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#15
welllll its the JL e-sub range.

on top of that i got them for 37% of the RRP (not 37% off, 37% of the RRP) so i couldnt really say no.

admittedly it would be a very high speaker - sub ratio if i worked off of RRP. i definietely wanted 2 though so i can set them up as L/R channels in the configurator
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#16
Going back to the original point of this thread I think a speaker should at least be able to reproduce 41 Hz (the lowest note on stringed instruments) and that with enough dynamic range and speed (that what many small woofers miss). Of course being able to reproduce 30Hz would be nice but anything below that I consider unnecessary and requires a lot of effort to really reproduce well in a room.
in short: more important is the quality of the bass (impulse response, distortion etc) than how the deep the -3dB point is.
An other comment to subwoofer placement: they can be optimized for in room response independent of the main speakers but then there is the problem of the upper crossover point (interference patterns from identical sound sources). The distance of main speakers and subs should be within less than 1/4 wavelength. So either not so far from the main speakers or low crossover point!
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#17
in Jim Bensons Get better sound he recommends putting the subs behind the speakers in the same line so that the crossover point meshes perfectly.
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#18
I have bought 4x Yamaha ns-sw300 subs , small subs, and am going to try the "swarm" approach, they should be here on thur or fri so will experiment over the weekend.. I wont high pass the G1's
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles...er-system/
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/0812/di...d_bass.htm
I was thinking 6 subs , but 4 will do me for now ..
Roon/tidal > Squeezebox touch  > Trinnov St2 or DIRAC (minidsp ddrc-22d) > Dual mono D premiers > Vivid Audio Giya G1 Spirits  ...fully treated  dedicated 6x8m room
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#19
i have been doing some quick measurements with acourate before people got home and started making noise.

When you do a logsweep of your system it tells you equal your left and right channels are compared to each other. my room is horrible with an open side while the other is a wall so ive always gotten about 55%. by simply using an 80 hz crossover between sub and speaker ive raised the left and right speakers to 69%!

so i think using a subwoofer can be important
Amp - Devialet 400 Speakers - vivid audio B1 Speaker cable - audioquest oak Power conditioner - furman SPR 16IE Source - audio PC with paul pang audio usb card v3 and paul pang red dual usb cable running through jplay. usb card powered by teddy pardo power supply Source 2 - line in from integra AV receiver (TV)
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