Dynaudio (Evoke) + ExpertPro 220

[zoran_pavlovic]

Hi guys,
A few months ago I bought a brand new Dynaudio Evoke 50, and after that, I bought Deavialet ExpertPro 220 brand new. 
Well, after some 200 hours of listening my impression is that the overall sound stage is good (not great for me) and Devialet is very transparent so I can listen the whole day without fatigue. 
On the other hand, I'm in doubt does it have enough power to drive this Dynaudio. Evoke 50 is 260 Watts / 4 ohms and with a sensitivity of 87 dB. 
a few months ago I auditioned at my home: Simaudio Moon 340i + Auralic Vega + Auralic Mini. 
And that setup drove my Dynaudio much, much better. More power in bass and treble, meanwhile highs were good. 
Just curious if there are some Dynaudio owners to express their opinion with Devialat. 
I am in doubt now about what to do: sell Dynaudio and buy other speakers (Spendor D7.2 on my mind) or sell Devialet and buy Simaudio Moon 340i?

thanks in advance 
Zoran

[Jean-Marie]

A D220 provides 330 W under 4 ohms while the Simaudio Moon 340i “only” delivers 200 W under 4 ohms at a much higher level of distortion, and lower damping factor (control).

Be aware that higher distortion and less control can give you the feelings that you describe.

So up to you for what puts the bigger smile on your face.

Jean-Marie

[David A]

I owned a pair of Dynaudio Contour 1.3 SE when I bought my Devialet 130 Pro (now a 140 Pro after a firmware update). The 1.3 SE are specified as less sensitive than the Evoke 50 (86 dB/W/M vs 87 dB/W/M) and a Stereophile review indicated they were closer to 83 dB/W/M.

You mention 2 eras of concern, soundstage and power. Soundstage is far more dependent on setup in your room than on the amp. I thought soundstage with the !.3 SE was superb.

Power is a bit trickier. My 130 Pro drove them better than my previous amp, a NAD M3 integrated, did and that is despite the NAD being rated as delivering more power than the 130 Pro. Over and above the transparency you mention, the 130 Pro delivered superior bass control to the NAD and when it came to peak volume levels I had no complaints at all about the 130 Pro. It could deliver higher listening levels in my room than I ever wanted to listen to.

You don't mention your room size and that is a big factor when considering whether an amp has enough power but if an amp does not has enough power to drive the speakers to a sufficiently high level in a given room, you need a lot more power than you think. If the 220 Pro does not have enough power at 220 W into 6 Ohms, then the Moon 3401 which is rated at 100 W into 8 Ohms/200 W into 4 Ohms has less power and will not drive the Evoke 50s to the same level as the 220 Pro. In my experience with Dynaudio they respond well to bigger amps, no matter how large your amp a pair of Dynaudios will always seem to respond better to a bigger amp even when played at the same listening level as with the smaller amp. Apart from that, bass response depends a lot on damping factor the Devialet's are superb in that regard. My 130 Pro delivered far better bass than the larger NAD did.

You can always get better sound by upgrading to a better amp for the same speakers or better speakers for the same amp but in my experience the gains you can get that way are not as large as those you can get with better speaker and listening position setup in your room. I think your Dynaudios should work well with your 220 Pro and I would be reluctant to replace the amp with an amp with less power. You say you're getting good sound with the Dyns and the 220 Pro but better with the Moon 340i. I'd start by trying to improve things with better setup rather than changing components at this stage. You may be surprised at what you can achieve with just some time and effort. If I were going to look at more power for the Evokes, I'd be looking at something which delivered twice the power of the 220, not an amp rated to deliver less, but more power with Dynaudios puts you on a slippery slope because you will always think that they sound better with a bigger amp. They also sound better with better setup and they really are surprising when you achieve a really good setup. I'd work on setup first.

[zoran_pavlovic]

A D220 provides 330 W under 4 ohms while the Simaudio Moon 340i “only” delivers 200 W under 4 ohms at a much higher level of distortion, and lower damping factor (control).

Be aware that higher distortion and less control can give you the feelings that you describe.

So up to you for what puts the bigger smile on your face.

Jean-Marie

Hi Jean-Marie,
many thanks for your answer. Appreciate it. 
Yes, it might be one of the causes that I felt "fuller, punchier" sound. Though, I see that on many audio-shows this configuration is common Dynaudio+Simaudio. 
Anyhow, what I did is: after few months of struggling with mConnectHD uPnP application, yesterday I attached my Auralic Aries mini (with linear external auralic power supply) to my Devialet, and .. what a difference. 
So, I decided to keep ExpertPro + Dynaudio, but the music comes from Auralic Mini, not from uPnP application.
Btw, don't know why but uPnp application which I've been using for months, suddenly refused to play on Devialet? It sees Devialet in the list of uPnP devices, but denies to play. 
I downloaded another one uPnP application on my iPhone, but the situation the same. 
Anyhow, I am satisfied with the sound now and will enjoy the music  
have a nice weekend
Zoran

[zoran_pavlovic]

I owned a pair of Dynaudio Contour 1.3 SE when I bought my Devialet 130 Pro (now a 140 Pro after a firmware update). The 1.3 SE are specified as less sensitive than the Evoke 50 (86 dB/W/M vs 87 dB/W/M) and a Stereophile review indicated they were closer to 83 dB/W/M. 

You mention 2 eras of concern, soundstage and power. Soundstage is far more dependent on setup in your room than on the amp. I thought soundstage with the !.3 SE was superb.

Power is a bit trickier. My 130 Pro drove them better than my previous amp, a NAD M3 integrated, did and that is despite the NAD being  rated as delivering more power than the 130 Pro. Over and above the transparency you mention, the 130 Pro delivered superior bass control to the NAD and when it came to peak volume levels I had no complaints at all about the 130 Pro. It could deliver higher listening levels in my room than I ever wanted to listen to.

You don't mention your room size and that is a big factor when considering whether an amp has enough power but if an amp does not has enough power to drive the speakers to a sufficiently high level in a given room, you need a lot more power than you think. If the 220 Pro does not have enough power at 220 W into 6 Ohms, then the Moon 3401 which is rated at 100 W into 8 Ohms/200 W into 4 Ohms has less power and will not drive the Evoke 50s to the same level as the 220 Pro. In my experience with Dynaudio they respond well to bigger amps, no matter how large your amp a pair of Dynaudios will always seem to respond better to a bigger amp  even when played at the same listening level as with the smaller amp. Apart from that, bass response depends a lot on damping factor the Devialet's are superb in that regard. My 130 Pro delivered far better bass than the larger NAD did.

You can always get better sound by upgrading to a better amp for the same speakers or better speakers for the same amp but in my experience the gains you can get that way are not as large as those you can get with better speaker and listening position setup in your room. I think your Dynaudios should work well with your 220 Pro and I would be reluctant to replace the amp with an amp with less power. You say you're getting good sound with the Dyns and the 220 Pro but  better with the Moon 340i. I'd start by trying to improve things with better setup rather than changing components at this stage. You may be surprised at what you can achieve with just some time and effort. If I were going to look at more power for the Evokes, I'd be looking at something which delivered twice the power of the 220, not an amp rated to deliver less, but more power with Dynaudios puts you on a slippery slope because you will always think that they sound better with a bigger amp. They also sound better with better setup and they really are surprising when you achieve a really good setup. I'd work on setup first.

Hi David,
many thanks for the detailed answer. Do really appreciate the time you spend writing it. 
Actually yes, you gave some great points, as the one, that I might end in the daisy-chain, always buying amp with more power thinking it will sound better and better  
As for setup, you were such right! Namely, for over a months I struggle with uPnp application working on iPhone / iPad. And yesterday, the application I've been using for months mConnectHD suddenly stopped playing on Devialet.
Well, I took my Auralic Aries Mini + external linear Auralic power supply and attached to Devialet. What a difference. Much better sound (for my ears  
So, I decided to keep Devialet and Dynaudios and as you suggested to continue with experiments with setup and position of loudspeakers in my room.
Yes, to answer your question: my room is 7,5 x 5 meters. Since the kitchen is on the wall opposite my sofa, the speakers are about 2 meters away from the rear wall. Yes, I know that it is not the best solution, and I am thinking now to reposition speakers in my apartment. 
I will also try to play with Roon! So far didn't have enough time but now I will give a try. 
Also, I heard that DSP can make significant sound improvement. Don't know did you try to play with DSP, and what is your experience with Roon? 
Once again, many thanks for the answer and many useful recommendations, and have a great weekend. 
Zoran

[David A]

@zoran_pavlovic ,

Your room sounds as if its floor area is around 25% larger than mine and, given I was using a 130 with my Dyns, I think your 220 is large enough. 2 metres from the wall behind them is more than Dynaudio recommend but it's also the distance I had mine from the wall behind them. I think you may lose a little reinforcement in the bass but you'll be losing less than you may think and I actually found the top end and the sense of space and imaging was better at that distance from the wall than had been the case in my previous room where I had them around 1 metre from the wall. I think Dyns benefit from being out in the open.

I haven't tried DSP correction in my audio system but the room is acoustically treated. I do use DSP in my separate AV system in another room which is built around a Marantz AVR with Audyssey. DSP correction and physical acoustic treatments work differently and do some different things and based on my experience with only 2 setups I prefer physical treatment but that can be difficult in a living room (my audio system is in a room that is only used for the audio system) and DSP is a good option where physical treatment isn't an option. Actually the best option may be a combination of both. You can now use Devialet's Sweet Room option for DSP correction but you will only have access to a limited number of filters if you're also using SAM. While both physical treatment and DSP can make big improvements, both improve on the result you're getting without them. The better the result you're getting without them, the better the result you'll get with them. Get a good setup result first and then improve on that with DSP and/or physical treatments rather than starting from a poor setup result and trying to fix that by DSP and/or physical treatments.

I actually used an Aries Mini with the Auralic LPS for a while before moving to an Antipodes server with Roon and then to my Roon Nucleus+. I much prefer Roon's interface and the options it provides for searches based on recording metadata, plus I appreciate the way it integrates Tidal with my library. It was actually a trial of Roon software on my desktop Mac that persuaded me to swap from the Aries Mini to a Roon system, rip my entire CD collection to a server, and to run an entirely server based system rather than playing most music from a disc player.

[Delija]

For a start - spend some time for speaker positioning. It's far from optimal in your case. As you already know - we have a common friend

Devialet + Dynaudio is a very good match, but if you want/like warm colored sound, this combo is not for you.

What speaker cables do you use? I hope not anything with silver.

About the problem with UPnP - I assume you have tried to pull the power cord from the wall?
Also, why do you use mConnectHD and not BubbleUPnP which is far better?

[zoran_pavlovic]

@zoran_pavlovic ,

Your room sounds as if its floor area is around 25% larger than mine and, given I was using a 130 with my Dyns, I think your 220 is large enough. 2 metres from the wall behind them is more than Dynaudio recommend but it's also the distance I had mine from the wall behind them. I think you may lose a little reinforcement in the bass but you'll be losing less than you may think and I actually found the top end and the sense of space and imaging was better at that distance from the wall than had been the case in my previous room where I had them around 1 metre from the wall. I think Dyns benefit from being out in the open.

I haven't tried DSP correction in my audio system but the room is acoustically treated. I do use DSP in my separate AV system in another room which is built around a Marantz AVR with Audyssey. DSP correction and physical acoustic treatments work differently and do some different things and based on my experience with only 2 setups I prefer physical treatment but that can be difficult in a living room (my audio system is in a room that is only used for the audio system) and DSP is a good option where physical treatment isn't an option. Actually the best option may be a combination of both. You can now use Devialet's Sweet Room option for DSP correction but you will only have access to a limited number of filters if you're also using SAM. While both physical treatment and DSP can make big improvements,  both improve on the result you're getting without them. The better the result you're getting without them, the better the result you'll get with them. Get a good setup result first and then improve on that with DSP and/or physical treatments rather than starting from a poor setup result and trying to fix that by DSP and/or physical treatments.

I actually used an Aries Mini with the Auralic LPS for a while before moving to an Antipodes server with Roon and then to my Roon Nucleus+. I much prefer Roon's interface and the options it provides for searches based on recording metadata, plus I appreciate the way it integrates Tidal with my library. It was actually a trial of Roon software on my desktop Mac that persuaded me to swap from the Aries Mini to a Roon system, rip my entire CD collection to a server, and to run an entire server based system rather than playing most music from a disc player.

Hi David, 
many thanks for your answer. It was very useful for me reading about DSP! And yes, in my living room the physical treatment is not easy to do (I will have to reorganize my living room at all, so, I am not sure it is the price I am ready to pay for Hi Fi enjoyment). 
As for Roon, yes, I will make a try since already have some friends shifted to Roon and they're satisfied with it. Though I thought the Roon is just some kind of cosmetical thing, I read that it can improve (don't know how) the way Tidal sounds? 

have a nice day and thanks a lot 
Zoran

[zoran_pavlovic]

For a start  - spend some time for speaker positioning. It's far from optimal in your case. As you already know - we have a common friend

Devialet + Dynaudio is a very good match, but if you want/like warm colored sound, this combo is not for you.

What speaker cables do you use? I hope not anything with silver.

About the problem with UPnP - I assume you have tried to pull the power cord from the wall?
Also, why you use mConnectHD and not BubbleUPnP which is far better?

Hi Delija - Sever  
- speaker positioning: yes, definitely I have to play with that. 
- Devailat + Dyunadio: "if you want/like warm colored sound" :  well, warm - yes, colored - no   Don't know have you had a chance to listen to some Moon on your Dyns, but if not, it worths a try. Since Moon is  AB class (in first 5watts - A class) and Devialet is D class, there is a difference in sound, but I wouldn't say that Moon brings some colors in the sound? Personally, I liked more the sound of Moon + Vega + Mini than Devialet's sound. Maybe Devialet is too revealing? 
- Speaker cable: Alpha Core Goertz: pure copper (purchased these cables by recommendation of our common friend  .. and very satisfied with them! 
- "why you use mConnectHD and not BubbleUPnP which is far better" - Apple  .. I have iPhone, iPad but BubbleUpNp doesn't work on Apple devices. Maybe they made a version for Apple meanwhile. If you have some other recomm of UPnP for apple, let me know. 

regards
Zoran 

[Delija]

Pozdrav, zemljak

Prior to Devialet I had Parasound Halo A21 which is also A class in first 7W. Devialet is far from standard D class. It doesn't sound like D class at all.

Warm = colored
That is basically the voicing of old Dynaudio speakers - increased energy in mid-bass frequency range, a little decreased energy in treble range. Dynaudio has changed a bit its "house" sound with recent models.

You can try to increase warmth in your system with speaker positioning - the goal is to increase the mid-bass range.

I havent heard Evoke series yet, but I know very well how Contour and Confidence lines sound. I also have Excite and Emit as a part of surround system. Confidence, Excite and Emit have pretty similar voicing with more open sound and more energy in higher frequencies compared with Contours and even more compared with the old Dynaudio models. That can be pretty clearly seen on measurements.

I have listened to Confidence 30 with Moon 700i v2 (Mladja Vox). It sounds really great, but I still prefer the sound of my combo - it has more transparency, dynamics, resolution, "air", even 3D... I haven't tried Moon in my room and of course, the room is very important part of the Hi-Fi chain - if not the most important. I also use subwoofers in my system, but not to change basic voicing, but to bring more quality and control to bass/sub-bass region and to solve room issues below ~70 Hz.

Speaking of cables...
I've tried different speaker cables and despite some talks that Devialet is not so sensitive to cables - I can't really agree with that. E.g. WireWorld Silver Eclipse 7 sounds very "lean" and even "metallic". It does bring a lot of resolution, details and "air", but sound loses its "body" - acoustic guitar sounds like it's made of metal. I didn't expect that cable can bring so significant difference. I'm pretty sure that WW would be great match in some systems - not in this. In the end, Transparent Ultra Gen 5 cables stayed in system. It's not the most open, revealing and airy cable (like e.g. Nordost Tyr), but it's not trying to be. It has great resolution combined with high musicality and fluidity with deep and wide 3D soundstage.

Back to positioning and room...
Some measurements could show what are the exact issues (if there are any) in your system and room.
Yes, I know that audiophiles don't like measurements , but a lot can be seen by just looking at the measurements - especially below ~200-300 Hz.



p.s. Mozemo i da se cujemo telefonom, ako mislis da mogu nekako da ti pomognem.