USB connection and Roon volume control.

[BoyScout]

Hi,

I´m searching for the right connection between a Zenmini and the Dev.
I tried first eth cables and i´m trying now the USB connection.

After a long period listening just the eth connection i´m now listening via USB, the sound seems bolder and wider and less sharp but the i have not the same scale to control the volume with roon, is between 0 and 100 considering 100 very low.
I need always to use the Dev remote and check the volume on the display.

Is there a way to change this?
I liked the way it worked with the computer/AIR.

Thanks for the support.

[BoyScout]

Here´s how it´s connected.

[BoyScout]

Trying to get some help.
If someone has a tip, i´ll appreciate.
Thanks.

[David A]

Since you haven't had a reply, I'll say what I THINK is the problem.

You're talking about 2 different connection methods, ethernet which is a network connection and USB which isn't a network connection. The information which can get passed on each of those connections is different.

It seems you're using Roon. With ethernet the Zenmini will connect with the Devialet using either Devialet's AIR protocol or Roon's RAAT protocol. Both of those protocols allow Roon to access the Cevialet's volume control directly so when you adjust the volume in Roon you are effectively doing the same thing as using the Devialet remote and Roon will give you a volume level readout which matches the volume level shown in the Devialet's display..

When you connect via USB Roon does not have access to the Devialet's volume control. When it adjusts the volume what it does is it reduces the level of the signal being sent to the Devialet so the Devialet is no longer receiving a bit perfect stream. That's why Roon is showing a volume scale from 0 to 100 instead of the volume scale from -97.5 dB to +30 dB you get when using an ethernet connection. You cannot control the volume in the same way as you do over ethernet when you're using USB. Using USB you can send a music stream to the Devialet's DAC but you can't control functions like the Devialet's volume control which you can do with an ethernet connection.

Your best bet with USB is to turn volume control off in Roon's settings for the output and simply adjust the volume with the Devialet remote. The reason why you're running into volume problems—the volume tends to be too low—is you're currently adjusting the volume within the music stream signal using Roon and you're feeding a volume adjusted signal to the Devialet DAC and whatever volume setting the Devialet is set to is then being applied to the DAC's output lowering the volume level you hear even further.. The alternative would be to set the Devialet's volume to 0 dB and control the volume in Roon but you will never see the volume level displayed by Roon matching the level shown on the Devialet's display because those 2 volume controls are completely separate controls, not the same volume control, and you're losing any benefits of a bit perfect signal path.

[BoyScout]

Since you haven't had a reply, I'll say what I THINK is the problem.

You're talking about 2 different connection methods, ethernet which is a network connection and USB which isn't a network connection. The information which can get passed on each of those connections is different.

It seems you're using Roon. With ethernet the Zenmini will connect with the Devialet using either Devialet's AIR protocol or Roon's RAAT protocol. Both of those protocols allow Roon to access the Cevialet's volume control directly so when you adjust the volume in Roon you are effectively doing the same thing as using the Devialet remote and Roon will give you a volume level readout which matches the volume level shown in the Devialet's display..

When you connect via USB Roon does not have access to the Devialet's volume control. When it adjusts the volume what it does is it reduces the level of the signal being sent to the Devialet so the Devialet is no longer receiving a bit perfect stream. That's why Roon is showing a volume scale from 0 to 100 instead of the volume scale from -97.5 dB to +30 dB you get when using an ethernet connection. You cannot control the volume in the same way as you do over ethernet when you're using USB. Using USB you can send a music stream to the Devialet's DAC but you can't control functions like the Devialet's volume control which you can do with an ethernet connection.

Your best bet with USB is to turn volume control off in Roon's settings for the output and simply adjust the volume with the Devialet remote. The reason why you're running into volume problems—the volume tends to be too low—is you're currently adjusting the volume within the music stream signal using Roon and you're feeding a volume adjusted signal to the Devialet DAC and whatever volume setting the Devialet is set to is then being applied to the DAC's output lowering the volume level you hear even further.. The alternative would be to set the Devialet's volume to 0 dB and control the volume in Roon but you will never see the volume level displayed by Roon matching the level shown on the Devialet's display because those 2 volume controls are completely separate controls, not the same volume control, and you're losing any benefits of a bit perfect signal path.

Thanks David A,

Always you, ready for a hand from the other side of the planet.
Very clarifying your explanation, now a lot of details are making sense for me, still ignorant in this field of computer audio.
The sound is completely different between the two ways (AIR and Roon´s RAAT protocol VS USB), bigger and "fatter" via USB and more detailed and sharper via AIR.
I´m searching for something in the middle, i´m not sure yet if the USB is the right solution for me.
Maybe the solution is to find the right ethernet cables and leave the USB.
I would like to know which solution is the most adopted among users of similar systems, just as a starting point.
Thanks again.

[David A]

I agree that USB and ethernet sound different. My preference is for ethernet but that's just my preference and others prefer USB.

There's a poll thread you may want to look at (https://devialetchat.com/Thread-What-is-...tal-source ). It tries to cover all of the sources/inputs you can use with a Devialet but it isn't particularly clear in places. For example, it offers a choice of computer with ethernet or USB but not music server with ethernet, and choices for music server via Usb or AES/EBU and not by ethernet so it's a little hard reading things into it but given what's there it has 56 people using ethernet from a computer, the only ethernet option, and a total of 41 people using USB from a computer and/or a server (the only 2 USB options) so it seems there is a slight preference for ethernet over USB. The combined total of ethernet and USB users in the poll is just slightly over 50% of the total.

As far as I know, that survey is the closest thing here to providing any sort of info about what the preferred streaming connection is amongst forum members but it has a lot of problems and I don't know what I would take away from it apart from the fact that it seems more people use ethernet than USB. Since there was no "server with ethernet" option, I wonder whether some of the people who voted for "other" were using a server and ethernet. I also wonder how many people using USB from, say, a network streamer also voted "other" because there are no specific options mentioning network streamer devices. There's also the problem that USB and ethernet aren't the only options for streaming from a network connected device (there's Airplay and other wifi options) and people are also streaming from devices other than computers or servers such as tablets, phones, and even from TVs and disc players with network connections and apps for connecting to streaming services plus the choice of method for connection to the Devialet is often made due to factors related to physical convenience rather than purely on sound quality concerns.

[BoyScout]

Yes, I have reached exactly the same conclusions, so, I´ll continue to exchange cables until I realize what sounds best to me in my system.

For now, USB is losing to eth, considering yet, the practical side of roon is limited in the first option, we'll see what the future holds.
Thanks a lot David, it was a single and precious help.
I will not forget.

[Confused]

I agree that USB and ethernet sound different. My preference is for ethernet but that's just my preference and others prefer USB.

There's a poll thread you may want to look at (https://devialetchat.com/Thread-What-is-...tal-source ). It tries to cover all of the sources/inputs you can use with a Devialet but it isn't particularly clear in places. For example, it offers a choice of computer with ethernet  or USB but not music server with ethernet, and choices for music server via Usb or AES/EBU and not by ethernet so it's a little hard reading things into it but given what's there it has 56 people using ethernet from a computer, the only ethernet option, and a total of 41 people using USB from a computer and/or a server (the only 2 USB options) so it seems there is a slight preference for ethernet over USB. The combined total of ethernet and USB users in the poll is just slightly over 50% of the total.

As far as I know, that survey is the closest thing here to providing any sort of info about what the preferred streaming connection is amongst forum members but it has a lot of problems and I don't know what I would take away from it apart from the fact that it seems more people use ethernet than USB. Since there was no "server with ethernet" option, I wonder whether  some of the people who voted for "other" were using a server and ethernet. I also wonder how many people using USB from, say, a network streamer also voted "other" because there are no specific options mentioning network streamer devices. There's also the problem that USB and ethernet aren't the only options for streaming from a network connected device (there's Airplay and other wifi options) and people are also streaming from devices other than computers or servers such as tablets, phones, and even from TVs and disc players with network connections and apps for connecting to streaming services plus the choice of method for connection to the Devialet is often made due to factors related to physical convenience rather than purely on sound quality concerns.

It is worth noting that the above linked poll is now over five years old.  This goes a long way to explaining why the poll does not cover music servers outputting via Ethernet, they were an extremely rare beast five years ago.

In addition, things have changed with the Pro series.  USB implementation is reckoned by some to much better in the Pro, and in the same way streaming via AIR Ethernet has certainly improved.  Collectively we also have a lot more experience now, as an example I voted AIR / Ethernet in the poll, but this would not be my choice now.

So maybe it would be fun and informative to start a new poll?  We just need to agree on the options, maybe the same as the poll linked above but add the "server via Ethernet" option?  Can anyone think of any other options that should be added?  You can have 12 options in a poll, and the 2104 poll had 10 options, so we have a spare slot if anyone can think of something?  I also think the poll should be Pro only, or maybe a separate poll for the Pro and Expert respectively, as the hierarchy between inputs may vary between the two series.

To be honest, I would say that polls like this are always going to be a little flawed, for example, I have found a microRendu + Mutec MC3+USB via AES/EBU to be more or less equal to Roon AIR, whereas sMS-200Ultra+tXUSBultra+Mutec MC3+USB+REF10 via AES/EBU is a little better for SQ, albeit a little worse for complexity and cost. However, flawed or not, polls can be interesting and can provide guidance, so why not have a new poll?

@David A - Based on your post above, obviously have a few ideas having reviewed the 2014 poll, could you suggest 12 options for a new poll?

[Antoine]

I fully agree with you @Confused! The poll is quite old (2014 ) and many have changed their setups and Devialet changed the Expert series.

Indeed Pro only and add the option ‘music server via ethernet’ which wasn’t possible back then since only Air was supported.

It seems back then a distiction was made between a music server and a computer while actually both are computers but I think Music Or Sound had been thinking about commercial music servers like Innuos, Melco etc. vs DIY music servers and/or plain computers back then. Question is in which category would the likes of the SoTM SMS series, Sonore ‘x’Rendu (lean&mean, optimized end-points) etc. fall. Too little options available so probably best to group these or remove the ‘I don’t know ...’ and ‘They all sound the same options’.

Also now there’s inputs like uPnP and Airplay, again too little poll options. Perhaps @GuillaumeB or @Rufus McDufus can up this limit?

[Rufus McDufus]

Ah, didn't realise the limit of poll options was so low. I've increased it to 100.