22-May-2019, 11:09
I'm not ruling anything out, I did say it was a possibility. What I said was that I wonder about how likely that is as a cause. As for ruling something out without evidence, there's also no evidence of the kind of problem you suggested as far as I'm aware. If, as you suggest, the problem is related to a particular hardware version that has been changed on the CI board at some time then you could try opening a poll thread and asking people when they got their CI upgrade/bought an amp with the CI board, and also whether they get the problem or not (limit responses to those using RAAT and a wired gigabit connection so things don't get messed up by people who are not at risk of the problem don't respond and distort the data). If you're right then we should be able to identify that those people who do have the problem tended to get their amps/upgrades either before or after a certain date but if there is no date correlation with the problem and the incidence is relatively even over the whole period since the boards started reaching users then that would tend to indicate that a change in hardware on the CI board isn't related and perhaps even that there haven't been any hardware revisions on the board.
The big problem with a poll like that is whether or not you get a representative sample. There are 4,213 members on this board at the moment yet there are only 200 posts on this thread and many of the people who have posted have posted multiple times. There are probably less than 200 members out of the total membership who have posted on this thread and not all of those people have the problem. 200 people is roughly 5% of the membership here and we don't know what percentage of members have amps with the CI board and it's a poll relying on self selection when it comes to responses. That's not a good recipe for getting a statistically reliable poll result but it's the best I think we could do here.
Our problem is that we have a problem but that's all we have. We have a set of symptoms that some people get and some people don't. We know it's associated with RAAT, the ethernet input on our Devialet's, and a gigabit connection. Not everyone using the Roon Ready input with a gigabit ethernet connection gets it but we know little else. @daniel.avasilichioaei has provided some interesting data and you've provided some analysis but with only one source of data we can't be sure whether only people who have the problem would show results like those that Daniel has demonstrated or whether people without the problem would see similar results if they did the same tests. That means we can't be sure Daniel's test results are related to the problem.
In other words we've got a pretty big lack of hard information when it comes to anything apart from how the problem manifests itself. Devialet and/or Roon may know more but at present they aren't saying anything and I can think of 3 reasons for that:
1- they haven't been able to reliably duplicate the problem. We don't know the actual incidence of the problem, how many people with CI boards using gigabit ethernet connections get the problem and how many don't. All we see are the reports here and on the Roon forums and people posting on these 2 sites are probably a minority of Devialet owners. What's happening with the people who don't post on the forum here and at Roon? If the problem is only occurring for a minority of owners then Devialet and Roon may actually be having issues replicating the problem reliably.
2- they can replicate the problem but they're still working on identifying a problem or developing a fix and they don't want to announce anything until they have something to announce.
3- they know what the problem is but there isn't a fix and they're trying to hide the facts.
There are some people here who will probably make arguments for each of those possibilities with justification because the lack of comment from both Devialet and Roon for more than 3 months doesn't inspire confidence but we've got no evidence to indicate which one of those possibilities is the most likely.
Basically, we know how the problem manifests itself but apart from that all we have is suppositions and guess work and the only people who could give us any reliable information are Devialet and Roon and they're not talking.
So I'm not ruling anything out but I'm not too strong on generating suggestions about causes that we have no way of checking out. Yes, one of those suggestions may be right but the only way we're going to know is if Roon or Devialet tell us what the problem is.
In the meantime I think the best we can do in practical terms is to gather comments about what people who aren't getting the problem are doing in their system, things like what are they running Roon on, what their network connections are, and what their config files are like, and also gathering that kind of info from those who get the problem. Then people with the problem could try duplicating the setup of those without it and see if that solves the issue and those without the problem could try duplicating the setup of those with the problem and see if they get the problem, and if they all report their results here we can start to develop a list of things that are common to those with the problem, those without the problem, and which changes either trigger or solve the problem. There's a lot of work involved in organising that sort of data and the more people providing data the better because given the number of different amp models involved, the number of different computers/servers being used to run Roon, and the number of different routers and switches likely to be in use it's going to be hard to get enough people with each combination of things in use to allow us to make educated guesses in every case.
I'm not trying to be negative but I once had to design and run a research project as part of a university course and actually having to do that in a way which stands up reasonably well both statistically and scientifically teaches you that doing that kind of project isn't as easy as you thought it would be before you started doing it.
The big problem with a poll like that is whether or not you get a representative sample. There are 4,213 members on this board at the moment yet there are only 200 posts on this thread and many of the people who have posted have posted multiple times. There are probably less than 200 members out of the total membership who have posted on this thread and not all of those people have the problem. 200 people is roughly 5% of the membership here and we don't know what percentage of members have amps with the CI board and it's a poll relying on self selection when it comes to responses. That's not a good recipe for getting a statistically reliable poll result but it's the best I think we could do here.
Our problem is that we have a problem but that's all we have. We have a set of symptoms that some people get and some people don't. We know it's associated with RAAT, the ethernet input on our Devialet's, and a gigabit connection. Not everyone using the Roon Ready input with a gigabit ethernet connection gets it but we know little else. @daniel.avasilichioaei has provided some interesting data and you've provided some analysis but with only one source of data we can't be sure whether only people who have the problem would show results like those that Daniel has demonstrated or whether people without the problem would see similar results if they did the same tests. That means we can't be sure Daniel's test results are related to the problem.
In other words we've got a pretty big lack of hard information when it comes to anything apart from how the problem manifests itself. Devialet and/or Roon may know more but at present they aren't saying anything and I can think of 3 reasons for that:
1- they haven't been able to reliably duplicate the problem. We don't know the actual incidence of the problem, how many people with CI boards using gigabit ethernet connections get the problem and how many don't. All we see are the reports here and on the Roon forums and people posting on these 2 sites are probably a minority of Devialet owners. What's happening with the people who don't post on the forum here and at Roon? If the problem is only occurring for a minority of owners then Devialet and Roon may actually be having issues replicating the problem reliably.
2- they can replicate the problem but they're still working on identifying a problem or developing a fix and they don't want to announce anything until they have something to announce.
3- they know what the problem is but there isn't a fix and they're trying to hide the facts.
There are some people here who will probably make arguments for each of those possibilities with justification because the lack of comment from both Devialet and Roon for more than 3 months doesn't inspire confidence but we've got no evidence to indicate which one of those possibilities is the most likely.
Basically, we know how the problem manifests itself but apart from that all we have is suppositions and guess work and the only people who could give us any reliable information are Devialet and Roon and they're not talking.
So I'm not ruling anything out but I'm not too strong on generating suggestions about causes that we have no way of checking out. Yes, one of those suggestions may be right but the only way we're going to know is if Roon or Devialet tell us what the problem is.
In the meantime I think the best we can do in practical terms is to gather comments about what people who aren't getting the problem are doing in their system, things like what are they running Roon on, what their network connections are, and what their config files are like, and also gathering that kind of info from those who get the problem. Then people with the problem could try duplicating the setup of those without it and see if that solves the issue and those without the problem could try duplicating the setup of those with the problem and see if they get the problem, and if they all report their results here we can start to develop a list of things that are common to those with the problem, those without the problem, and which changes either trigger or solve the problem. There's a lot of work involved in organising that sort of data and the more people providing data the better because given the number of different amp models involved, the number of different computers/servers being used to run Roon, and the number of different routers and switches likely to be in use it's going to be hard to get enough people with each combination of things in use to allow us to make educated guesses in every case.
I'm not trying to be negative but I once had to design and run a research project as part of a university course and actually having to do that in a way which stands up reasonably well both statistically and scientifically teaches you that doing that kind of project isn't as easy as you thought it would be before you started doing it.
Roon Nucleus+, Devilalet Expert 140 Pro CI, Focal Sopra 2, PS Audio P12, Keces P8 LPS, Uptone Audio EtherREGEN with optical fibre link to my router, Shunyata Alpha NR and Sigma NR power cables, Shunyata Sigma ethernet cables, Shunyata Alpha V2 speaker cables, Grand Prix Audio Monaco rack, RealTRAPS acoustic treatment.
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
