1000 Pro with SAM (Dynaudio Focus 360)

[Redwingnine]

Newer SVS subs don't have high-pass filter. Older ones did - and it was very poor quality.

"Artifacts" = bad effects of processing on transparency, resolution, dynamics, timbre, imaging, soundstage, "air"...

In high quality systems, with high quality speakers and components, where speakers are properly positioned, in rooms which are acoustically treated, with subwoofers that are optimized on their own - DSPs have more negative effects on the sound than positive.

I played a lot with different solutions for high-pass filter - digital and analog. Devialet Expert is pretty good, but not 100% transparent. The same is with JL Audio CR-1 - the analog filter. In the end - I gave up from high pass filter for stereo / hi-fi usage. Only subwoofers are being EQed.

Appreciate the feedback.  DSP: A subject worth investigating.  

Understand your explanations regarding high pass filters.  I do run the speakers without any high pass filtering.  Years ago, remember using Yamaha AV receivers with the various DSP modes.  All were awful.

Guess I'll need to listen to the 360's more with and without SAM.  So far, SAM seems subjectively better overall. 
The other speakers I have are not supported by SAM.  They have all SEAS Excel drivers, which are hyper sensitive to the input provided.

[Delija]

Seas Excel are great drivers.

Long ago I've owned Jamo D830. Very nice bookshelves.

[Redwingnine]

Seas Excel are great drivers.

Long ago I've owned Jamo D830. Very nice bookshelves.

Thanks.  The Linbook Signatures are amazing sounding.  I've heard much more expensive speakers that didn't sound as good to me as these.  

I played around some more with SAM and the Focus 360s.  Whilst the bass is much better with SAM ON, I did find that it could produce too much bass when set above 50%.  The bass doesn't sound entirely natural either.  It's one of those things that get noticed over time.  Some recordings still sound better with SAM, whilst others do not.

[David A]

I played around some more with SAM and the Focus 360s.  Whilst the bass is much better with SAM ON, I did find that it could produce too much bass when set above 50%.  The bass doesn't sound entirely natural either.  It's one of those things that get noticed over time.  Some recordings still sound better with SAM, whilst others do not.

When you turn SAM on at 0% you get phase correction below 150 Hz and protection of the bass driver from excessive extension at higher listening levels. As you turn the SAM setting up to higher levels you get an increasing amount of bass extension. The speaker designer voiced the speaker's bass response using an amp which was not modifying the speaker's bass response in that way.

As I said in an earlier response, whether or not the result is an improvement is going to depend on how the changed bass response of the speaker interacts with the acoustics of your room and also on factors like your personal tastes in bass.

I will say this: if you like the sound of your Focus 360's without SAM, if you would be happy living with them and an amplifier that does not have SAM, and you like the bass improvement that SAM gives but find that the bass with SAM can sound not entirely natural either, my recommendation would be to turn the SAM level down.

Pick a record which gives you that "not natural" bass sound at your normal SAM setting, play it at a volume where you're noticing that unnaturalness and start turning SAM down until it sounds less unnatural. Leave SAM at that level for a week or so while listening so that you get used to the sound of SAM at that level and are no longer noticing the difference with SAM turned down a bit but starting to notice how familiar music sounds with SAM at that level. Also play some music you've never heard before because you'll have no expectations of what the bass is going to be like with that record and that also helps to get a sense of what SAM sounds like at the new level rather than noticing what has changed. After a week or so, again play the recording you used when turning the bass down and see what you think this time. If things still sound a bit unnatural then turn SAM down again and repeat the process. It may take several repetitions turning SAM down a bit more each time but you should be able to find a SAM setting where the bass sounds better but you're not noticing that unnaturalness on the problematic record. When you do, just leave SAM at that setting for all music and enjoy.

I had to do that process with my Sopra 2's and in the end I found for me that having SAM on at 0% works for me but as soon as I start turning SAM up I start noticing that change in bass extension on some records, at lower settings on some records than on others, and it doesn't sound right to me. At 0% I'm happy with SAM on for all records and I'd rather have it on than off for all records. That's the sort of result I think you should be aiming for, a setting where you want to have SAM on at all times rather than off, but at the same time a setting where having SAM on at that setting doesn't annoy you or sound unnatural in any way. I'm not suggesting that you should turn SAM down to 0%, what I am suggesting is that if you prefer the bass with SAM on, it should be possible to find a SAM setting where you don't notice that unnaturalness that you refer to, and that playing all music with SAM at that level will give you what you like about having SAM on while avoiding whatever annoys you with some music with SAM on.

[Redwingnine]

I played around some more with SAM and the Focus 360s.  Whilst the bass is much better with SAM ON, I did find that it could produce too much bass when set above 50%.  The bass doesn't sound entirely natural either.  It's one of those things that get noticed over time.  Some recordings still sound better with SAM, whilst others do not.

When you turn SAM on at 0% you get phase correction below 150 Hz and protection of the bass driver from excessive extension at higher listening levels. As you turn the SAM setting up to higher levels you get an increasing amount of bass extension. The speaker designer voiced the speaker's bass response using an amp which was not modifying the speaker's bass response in that way.

As I said in an earlier response, whether or not the result is an improvement is going to depend on how the changed bass response of the speaker interacts with the acoustics of your room and also on factors like your personal tastes in bass.

I will say this: if you like the sound of your Focus 360's without SAM, if you would be happy living with them and an amplifier that does not have SAM, and you like the bass improvement that SAM gives but find that the bass with SAM can sound not entirely natural either, my recommendation would be to turn the SAM level down.

Pick a record which gives you that "not natural" bass sound at your normal SAM setting, play it at a volume where you're noticing that unnaturalness and start turning SAM down until it sounds less unnatural. Leave SAM at that level for a week or so while listening so that you get used to the sound of SAM at that level and are no longer noticing the difference with SAM turned down a bit but starting to notice how familiar music sounds with SAM at that level. Also play some music you've never heard before because you'll have no expectations of what the bass is going to be like with that record  and that also helps to get a sense of what SAM sounds like at the new level rather than noticing what has changed. After a week or so, again play the recording you used  when turning the bass down and  see what you think this time. If things still sound a bit unnatural then turn SAM down again and repeat the process. It may take several repetitions turning SAM down a bit more each time but you should be able to find a SAM setting where the bass sounds better but you're not noticing that unnaturalness on the problematic record. When you do, just leave SAM at that setting for all music and enjoy.

I had to do that process with my Sopra 2's and in the end I found for me that having SAM on at 0% works for me but as soon as I start turning SAM up I start noticing that change in bass extension on some records, at lower settings on some records than on others, and it doesn't sound right to me. At 0% I'm happy with SAM on for all records and I'd rather have it on than off for all records. That's the sort of result I think you should be aiming for, a setting where you want to have SAM on at all times rather than off, but at the same time a setting where having SAM on at that setting doesn't annoy you or sound unnatural in any way. I'm not suggesting that you should turn SAM down to 0%, what I am suggesting is that if you prefer the bass with SAM on, it should be possible to find a SAM setting where you don't notice that unnaturalness that you refer to, and that playing all music with SAM at that level will give you what you like about having SAM on while avoiding whatever annoys you with some music with SAM on.

Good advice.  Will do as you suggested.

[Confused]

In terms of the effect of SAM above 150Hz, in simple terms the effect on the balance of the frequency range due to SAM invoked DSP in place. There was a former member of this forum that proposed a simple test for this:

As follows:

To experience for yourself what I'm hearing listen to a recording with no bass but high frequencies (single instrument, woman's voice) and many of room information (best is live recordings). Listen - switch off SAM on RC - listen again. Then you know what SAM also does to your music.

The above is a very simple test to perform, and you can sit listening an toggle SAM on and off using the remote. You can get something near to a blind test, by toggling SAM a few times with the remote to the point where you have lost track if SAM is on or off. Then listen and see if you can discern which is SAM on or off during subsequent SAM toggles. (or get a friend on toggling duties, whilst you listen)

This is easy to try, and will give you a good indication of any negative effects of SAM, in your system, with your ears.

[David A]

In terms of the effect of SAM above 150Hz, in simple terms the effect on the balance of the frequency range due to SAM invoked DSP in place. There was a former member of this forum that proposed a simple test for this:

As follows:

To experience for yourself what I'm hearing listen to a recording with no bass but high frequencies (single instrument, woman's voice) and many of room information (best is live recordings). Listen - switch off SAM on RC - listen again. Then you know what SAM also does to your music.

The above is a very simple test to perform, and you can sit listening an toggle SAM on and off using the remote. You can get something near to a blind test, by toggling SAM a few times with the remote to the point where you have lost track if SAM is on or off. Then listen and see if you can discern which is SAM on or off during subsequent SAM toggles. (or get a friend on toggling duties, whilst you listen)

This is easy to try, and will give you a good indication of any negative effects of SAM, in your system, with your ears.

REL used to (and may still) recommend a similar test to demonstrate the benefit of adding one of their subwoofers to a system.