Best Audio Format for Phantom/Dialog/SPARK

[streamy]

I would like to share experience I have made in the last weeks with different audio formats used with a pair of Silver Phantoms (fw 1.2.0.0) and Dialog (fw 1.2.0.0) using SPARK (ver. 1.1.4). I'm using a MacMini latest gen. with external HD to Stream audio files using SPARK. The Phantoms connect to Dialog wirelessly or through integrated PLC (this cannot be influenced, however the Phantoms are not connected through ethernet). The MacMini is connected to the router via Ethernet as well as Dialog is attached to the same router. As controller I use SPARK on either IPhone, IPad or Sony Android phone. So far I made following experience:
- MP3, and other lossy formats play flawlessly independant on compression level, fast forward or rew jumping within a track has a delay/interrupt of 0.5-2s. jumping to other track 0.5-1s.
- compressed lossless formats in FLAC play flawlessly for Stereo 16/44.1k, 16/48k, 24/44.1k, 24/48 and 24/96k, however jumping within tracks needs patience, often takes 4-10s until music starts playing. Jumping to other tracks often takes 1-3s. 24/192k only plays with lots of stuttering. 24 bit music in 5.1 coding only plays with lots of stuttering, down conversion (lossless) to stereo of 5.1 titles work fine.
- compressed lossless formats in ALAC play flawlessly for Stereo 16/44.1k, 16/48k, 24/44.1k, 24/48 and 24/96k, jumping within tracks takes 0.2-1s (works best of all audio formats). Jumping to other tracks is also very zappy 0.2-1s. 24/192k only plays with lots of stuttering. Apparently, for now Apple lossless is the preferred audio format of the current SPARK implementation. All tracks show the cover and SPARK plays them as it should be expected, no stuttering, snappy when jumping within the track using the slider forwards and backwards, and snappy on track changes, however 100-200ms interrupt between tracks (no gapless live music listening yet).
Since lossless CD streaming from Qobuz and Tidal use FLAC we experience the same problems as for FLAC played from PC/Mac.
-uncompressed audio formats (wav, AIFF) play well for 16/44.1k, 16/48k, 24/44.1k and 24/48k. Problems start with higher sampling rates (96k/192k).

Devialet should be able to fix this or is ALAC a better implementation for streaming the files?
What is your experience?

[Charlemagne]

Well these are very interesting observations. Thank you for sharing. It gives me the impression that the Phantom/Dialog are better performing in an Apple environment. Suposedly the R&D by Devialet is done in an Apple environment as well. It would be interesting if someone would perform the same tests in a Windows environment indeed.

[Dvlt PhD]

Thank you, streamy

Have you tested any other lossless formats? What about APE?

You mention that you haven't tested "live gapless", yet. What about gapless, period? like, for example a recording that is not live, but some songs are recorded to not be separated by a gap...

I think also, the big picture would be, to know exactly what the Phantom + Dialog combo would never be able to do...

Like, wondering if the limitations you mention, of lossless uncompressed audio formats (96k/192k), and lossless compressed audio formats (192k; 24 bit music in 5.1 coding), are just things that Phantom owners will have to live with.


Other limitations could be HD formats.... If that is the case,...will Devialet be able to use the unplayable formats by auto-down converting them to the closest playable setup it detects?

I'm new to this kind of talk. My apologies.

p.s- Also:

I've never streamed in my life. I've been wondering... If I have music albums saved in one file, for example, 2 music albums/ 2 files (Instead of: saved as tracks), will I be able to play songs in "random" mode, from both albums, back and forth, randomly, as if they were all track files, instead of album files?


Thanks.

[amabrok]

Thanks for sharing. This seems consistent with Devialet development strategy where they tend to first make things work "seamlessly" within the Apple environment then later expand for other eco systems. Remember the early days of the expert line and how the Air technology and the Expert app for mobile were initially for iTunes, iOS and Apple.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[brighty]

In my experience, I don't think there's any difference with Windows PCs.

I'm in a completely PC environment and experience quicker timings than streamy has in respect of compressed FLAC up to 24/96. I would say the gap between tracks is anywhere between 0.5 to 1 second (it is usually almost instantaneous). I have never had a 4-10 second wait for any streamed music up to this sample rate. Streamy, when you say 'jump within tracks' do you mean fast forward? How on earth do you do that? I'm probably missing something completely obvious.

I have tried 192k, but I don't remember if it played stutter free. It did take an inordinate amount of time for the track to start (yes, around 10 seconds). It also occasionally creates strange buggy playing where Spark shows no track in the queue and where I can shut the app down and the track still plays until it's completed.

I'm running Spark on my windows 7 PC, which is connected via homeplug to my router. I use an ipad or an android phone (I have several) running Spark as the controller (no music on these devices). I have over 1.5TB of music on my PC so I'd have thought there's a lot of work for Spark to cope with as I scroll through and select songs.

Tidal Hifi's quality is several steps below my PC's streamed tracks.

[streamy]

Thank you, streamy

Have you tested any other lossless formats? What about APE?

You mention that you haven't tested "live gapless", yet. What about gapless, period? like, for example a recording that is not live, but some songs are recorded to not be separated by a gap...

I think also, the big picture would be, to know exactly what the Phantom + Dialog combo would never be able to do...

Like, wondering if the limitations you mention, of lossless uncompressed audio formats (96k/192k), and lossless compressed audio formats (192k; 24 bit music in 5.1 coding), are just things that Phantom owners will have to live with.


Other limitations could be HD formats.... If that is the case,...will Devialet be able to use the unplayable formats by auto-down converting them to the closest playable setup it detects?

I'm new to this kind of talk. My apologies.

p.s- Also:

I've never streamed in my life. I've been wondering... If I have music albums saved in one file, for example, 2 music albums/ 2 files (Instead of: saved as tracks), will I be able to play songs in "random" mode, from both albums, back and forth, randomly, as if they were all track files, instead of album files?


Thanks.

Hi Dvlt PhD,
No, I have not tested APE. As it is not listed in Devialet's spec sheet I assume it won't play.
So far, the shortest gap I can reproduce is around 100 ms. To be able to play gapless is a question of software implementation, i.e. when the next file is read into the buffer of the DAC. So, there should be no HW limitation that Devialet cannot solve in that respect. More difficult, if not impossible would be to always separate two or more tracks that are stored in one file as it is not obvious whether the 'pause' is part of a track or separates two tracks.
Devialet still needs to improve their current software, but From what they have done up to now, it should only be a matter of time until they have it done right. Others like Spotify can do it, so why Devialet not (I mean gapless playback)?

[streamy]

In my experience, I don't think there's any difference with Windows PCs.

I'm in a completely PC environment and experience quicker timings than streamy has in respect of compressed FLAC up to 24/96.  I would say the gap between tracks is anywhere between 0.5 to 1 second (it is usually almost instantaneous).  I have never had a 4-10 second wait for any streamed music up to this sample rate.  Streamy, when you say 'jump within tracks' do you mean fast forward?  How on earth do you do that?  I'm probably missing something completely obvious.

Hi brighty,
With jump within a track I mean more or less fast forard or rewind, however in digital times this is a bit harder to implement as it was in 'old times' with analog tapes. There is no fast forward button in SPARK, but you can move the orange slider that shows the current position in the track forth and back to any position in the track. This produces a jump within the track that goes snappy with ALAC files and not well with FLAC files, at least in a MAC environment. Maybe it works much better when SPARK streams the files on a windows 7 PC.

[brighty]

I'm embarrassed to say I've never noticed the orange slider...

[Dvlt PhD]

Thank you, streamy

Have you tested any other lossless formats? What about APE?

You mention that you haven't tested "live gapless", yet. What about gapless, period? like, for example a recording that is not live, but some songs are recorded to not be separated by a gap...

I think also, the big picture would be, to know exactly what the Phantom + Dialog combo would never be able to do...

Like, wondering if the limitations you mention, of lossless uncompressed audio formats (96k/192k), and lossless compressed audio formats (192k; 24 bit music in 5.1 coding), are just things that Phantom owners will have to live with.


Other limitations could be HD formats.... If that is the case,...will Devialet be able to use the unplayable formats by auto-down converting them to the closest playable setup it detects?

I'm new to this kind of talk. My apologies.

p.s- Also:

I've never streamed in my life. I've been wondering... If I have music albums saved in one file, for example, 2 music albums/ 2 files (Instead of: saved as tracks), will I be able to play songs in "random" mode, from both albums, back and forth, randomly, as if they were all track files, instead of album files?


Thanks.

Hi Dvlt PhD,
No, I have not tested APE. As it is not listed in Devialet's spec sheet I assume it won't play.
So far, the shortest gap I can reproduce is around 100 ms. To be able to play gapless is a question of software implementation, i.e. when the next file is read into the buffer of the DAC. So, there should be no HW limitation that Devialet cannot solve in that respect. More difficult, if not impossible would be to always separate two or more tracks that are stored in one file as it is not obvious whether the 'pause' is part of a track or separates two tracks.
Devialet still needs to improve their current software, but From what they have done up to now, it should only be a matter of time until they have it done right. Others like Spotify can do it, so why Devialet not (I mean gapless playback)?

Thanks, streamy.

I guess any software shortcomings can be outdone by using another software?...

I wonder if using a different software makes Phantom sound worse...

[BestKlaus]

[quote pid='19916' dateline='1435366938']
My Dialog / Silver Phantom doesn't play FLAC 24/192. I have only one CD that I can hear, but only with stuttering. Do you know, how can I fix it?
[/quote]