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Buying advise Phantom, Connection, Placement & Features
#1
Brick 
Hey everybody,

I'm seriously evaluating to move to a Phantom setup. I wanted to check my scenario with you and see if it fits.
Thanks in advance for helping me here and for reading text! If you just want to help me answer you can scroll down to +/? list Smile

What I would like to achieve:
Great stereo sound with great looks and good usability - smart speaker capabilities for Airplay, Spotify, Tidal and Alexa.
Option to also drive TV/movie sound through it without big hassle.
Im not too much into getting the last 2-3% out of the solution (with investing 90% of the costs for that...) - also a perfect stereo triangle is not really possible in my room
(If I fix stuff to the wall I can do a Stereo triangle 4m between the speakers and 4m listening distance, if I put them on the floor/Stands I can only do 2m between speakers with still 4m listening distance)
Also my room is not bad. No concrete walls, much wood, not to much echo. Measured with REW..

Where I am coming from:
I started with a SONOS setup many years ago having a Playbar in the front and two play 1 as rear + sub.
I hated it - the voices and sound coming from the front/playbar are just a joke compared to any stereo setup with medium speakers.
Also music in general was not fine. Mostly I used the Play1s as stereo + Sub.
I still dont understand why you cant pair any decent front speakers with a Playbar/Base/bla - maybe changes with S2.
And you dont get a optical or HDMI input if you dont buy Bare/Base/Bla.

What I did then is just buy two Play5 2nd as stereo setup and fixed them to the wall above the TV. (So 4m listening distance, 4m distance between the speakers).
The setup was pretty klunky - Play5 with Tidal was pretty decent but TV sound went from TV headphone exit to Sonos Connect and from connect to the Play5s. (as there was/is no optical/HDMI input from Sonos without a bar).Its not really supported by Sonos but it worked - most of the times. But with later software versions I got more and more disconnects and issues.

So I looked onto the hifi market his days and realized that there are smart stereo/AVR AMPs. Whoooo.
So first I bought a Yamaha 481 Amp and two Dali Zensor (cheapest in line) Result: Worse sound than the Play5s.

Then people told me to invest and I bought a NAD C368 amp + Dali Opticon 6 - and fitted BluOS + HDMI module into the C368.
POWER SETUP!
Well, if I move the speakers to a perfect triangle (which I cant with floorstanding), the NAD C368 is not running into bugs and and the streaming from TIDAL works (with the NAD) - then everything is fine.

Most of the times the C368 runs into a bug, I am fiddling around with speaker placement. etc. So - I dont like it because most of the time its a compromise - which costed me as much as two Phantom Premier Classic. And hey...

Where I want to go:
So I was browsing the "How do I get great stereo sound without being one of those "tube sounds best, buy 20.000 Euro McIntosh" guy.
My thought was to buy two Phantom Premier Classic - which are the same $$$ amount as my setup today. The assumptions I took were the following - could you please comment if I am right?

+Great design, great size, great sound... maybe best sound from active wireless speakers in that price range
+All of my smart speaker requirements are met (Airplay, Tidal, Alexa, Spotify)
+Optical In for TV digital sound (btw. HDMI eARC would be really cool)

What I am not so sure about:
?With the new product line I dont have to use the dialog box anymore for stereo and optical input. Right? Also optical input from one Phantom will go to the other if setup as stereo

?I have to buy the remote if I want to control sound while not using the app and using optical input. Right? Phantom doesnt have an IR features to f.exp. get signal from TV remote

?Placement - how tolerant are Phantoms? Can I do a very sharp stereo triangle while putting them on stands (2m distance between speakers, 4m listening distance) or better on wall with 4m - 4m distance? I read somewhere that the sweetspot is pretty large...?

?DSP - lots of nice technology in the Phantoms.. but I didnt see any DSP. Is there any option to this?

?There is some competition... I am really nosy about the Buchardt A500 but they are not out yet and look boring, KEF LS50 (or similar) some like, some dont - dont - dont think they can do on the bass side what Phantom does

Thanks again!!!
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#2
The biggest issue with your questions is Alexa. Phantoms will not do Alexa (or any of 'those'). Second is TV sound. It will work fine provided you can delay video long enough to have good lip sync. This is a known problem with Phantoms (and Kii and D&D + several others) - in other words digital active speakers with DSP control. They all have rather large delays for the DSP to do it's 'magic'. Third is placement. Phantoms behave like any normal speaker when it comes to position. For great stereo it is usually important with equal distance to speakers. 4 meters apart may work well as long as both speakers "see" similar surroundings, but one in a corner and the other in 'the open' will create serious imbalances. Some DSP controlled speakers (like Kii and D&D) have built-in capacity to deal with that, but not Phantoms.

Phantoms are fabulous speakers. Bass capability is simply amazing, but the rest of the range is also extremely good - just not so unusual compared to the competition.

If you do some reading here on DC you'll soon understand what is good and what is frustrating with Phantoms.
*
Devialetless!
Roon, ROCK/Audiolense XO/Music on NAS/EtherRegen/RoPieee/USPCB/ISORegen/USPCB/Sound Devices USBPre2/Tannoy GOLD 8
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#3
Welcome to forum.

(17-Apr-2020, 11:01)nostra Wrote: +Great design, great size, great sound... maybe best sound from active wireless speakers in that price range
I agree. And the key is at the price range, for both the Premier and Reactor range.

(17-Apr-2020, 11:01)nostra Wrote: +All of my smart speaker requirements are met (Airplay, Tidal, Alexa, Spotify)
This summarises what the Premier and Reactor range can do with streaming
https://help.devialet.com/hc/en-us/secti...vialet-App-
Sorry, no Alexa, as mentioned earlier.

(17-Apr-2020, 11:01)nostra Wrote: +Optical In for TV digital sound (btw. HDMI eARC would be really cool)
Yes to optical in. As mentioned there is a delay with the Premier with DOS2, and Devialet are intending to reduce this in a future release (unknown date).  The Reactors have AV sync already.

(17-Apr-2020, 11:01)nostra Wrote: ?With the new product line I dont have to use the dialog box anymore for stereo and optical input. Right? Also optical input from one Phantom will go to the other if setup as stereo
Correct, no need for Dialog with DOS2.  And correct, optical input into 1 Phantom to get stereo.

(17-Apr-2020, 11:01)nostra Wrote: ?I have to buy the remote if I want to control sound while not using the app and using optical input. Right? Phantom doesnt have an IR features to f.exp. get signal from TV remote
The Remote is for volume only, expensive but I found it useful.  No IR.

(17-Apr-2020, 11:01)nostra Wrote: ?Placement - how tolerant are Phantoms? Can I do a very sharp stereo triangle while putting them on stands (2m distance between speakers, 4m listening distance) or better on wall with 4m - 4m distance? I read somewhere that the sweetspot is pretty large...?
The sweetspot is large.  Need to place the Phantoms like any stereo speakers, on stands and take care of placement in room.  Better if you can do 3m apart, but 2m is ok.  I personally do not like wall placement, too close which can cause first reflection problems.  Also, never in corner.

(17-Apr-2020, 11:01)nostra Wrote: ?DSP - lots of nice technology in the Phantoms.. but I didnt see any DSP. Is there any option to this?
You can use external DSP and feed in via optical.  If you are using Roon, then you can enable DSP from within Roon.  Otherwise, use external box like miniDSP SHD Studio with Dirac Live or Dspeaker X4.

I use DSP convolution on Minimserver using UPnP (prefer the sound compared with optical) to the Phantoms.  I created the convolution filters manually using REW and rePhase.  There are also packages like Audiolense and Acourate to create convolution filters.
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I believe the Phantoms are excellent for the price range (see my story in my signature).  Probably the Kii Three which includes DSP may be better but it cost more than 3 times. One option you may want to consider is getting the Reactors. They are cheaper but not that far behind in sound quality.

There are of course challenges.  Devialet are not very good with software updates and you can see many DOS2 issues on this forum.  Devialet are not on this forum either.

I chose a pair of Phantom Golds to replace a multi component system costing a lot, lot more.  The simplicity of the setup attracted me. But most importantly, the sound quality is superb and I have no regrets changing over.
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#4
Wink 
All - wow thank you for the fantastic answers!

Well Alexa is not that important - I still could find a workaround with optical input I guess. One input I could connect my TV, the other something which Alexa can use as output device and has optical out. Im sure I find something.

From what you write my largest concern is placement. And I know that positioning any decent stereo my situation is crappy.

Its neither symmetrical nor perfect stereo triangle.

I can show you what I mean. Question is if the Phantoms will be able to compensate wall mounted.. or if I have to find other ways.
Black circle is where the Sonos Play5 2nd gen have been mounted - pretty much same distance between speakers as listening position.
I could put the Phantoms there too... and angle the tweeter to listening position.. fexp.

You see how bad the Opticons are placed... not symmetrical.. to close together. I was able to fix it a little.. but I cant pull them to much to the outside as this blocks doors...

[Image: IMG-8001.jpg]
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#5
Is there a wall on the right or is there open space?
*
Devialetless!
Roon, ROCK/Audiolense XO/Music on NAS/EtherRegen/RoPieee/USPCB/ISORegen/USPCB/Sound Devices USBPre2/Tannoy GOLD 8
250 Pro CI, MicroRendu(1.4), Mutec MC-3+USB
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#6
Actually there is a little wall (its not brick/solid). its like 1.6m into the room

I guess I should get headphones?  Shy 

Anyway. A little "professional" drawing below. Circles mark position of the Play5s.
I could move the Phantoms a bit in and angle them... fexp.


Attached Files Thumbnail(s)
   
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#7
Sorry for the late reply here.
That setup would give you an imbalance in the bass region that would take digital room correction to solve, but other than that should sound good. A DSPeaker unit like the antimode 2.0 would probably do the trick. It has Toslink output so can interface directly with Phantoms. I would not worry too much about the wall by the sofa.
*
Devialetless!
Roon, ROCK/Audiolense XO/Music on NAS/EtherRegen/RoPieee/USPCB/ISORegen/USPCB/Sound Devices USBPre2/Tannoy GOLD 8
250 Pro CI, MicroRendu(1.4), Mutec MC-3+USB
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#8
Again many thanks for the advise! I think I will go listen in a shop to it... and if I like it give it a try with your suggestions (DSP)
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#9
(22-Apr-2020, 09:20)nostra Wrote: Again many thanks for the advise! I think I will go listen in a shop to it... and if I like it give it a try with your suggestions (DSP)

My right gold tend to sound louder because it is closer to the wall/window front. The left one is pretty much in open space. Since the phantom have this crazy spherical sound design, a lot of the sound is emitted to the side. If you have a wall close to the phantom, obviously, this side-sound will be reflected and thus makes the direct pressure coming from the right phantom stronger. 

In my case I moved the phantom about 1.5m from the wall, so sound is ok. But still, when I try to sit perfectly located, close my eyes, the right one is louder. Of course I tried to switch the left and the right to make sure it is not the hardware itself...

Looking at your picture I can imagine that it will be difficult to place the left phantom. Maybe you would put them even closer together – which I think due to the radial sound is a lot less a problem for the sound stage than with traditional speakers. 

Very important: Don't forget to buy the stand/tripod! also due to the radial design it makes a huge difference where you put the phantoms. They definitely sound best on a stand/tripod. It is a bit difference than when putting then directly on the floor or another flat surface such as a chair or box or something.  


That said: I have my phantom now for about three years and I absolutely love them. Devialet is really king at hardware and audio engineering level, unfortunately the (end user) software does not match that great hardware. I am still on the old OS together with a Dialog and I am afraid of upgrading to DOS2 doe to all the bad experiences other users have and the missing features like web-radio which I really like a lot for casual listening. For me this integration and all-included was a selling point.
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