D220 pro CI vs D440 pro CI

[chungjh]

I need some advice on D220 pro vs D440 pro. I listen only to digital music (Tidal) from my old mac laptop to USB to D220 pro to Dynaudio confidence C1 bookshelf speakers (4 ohms impedance) (in a very small room 10 ft x 11 ft x 8 ft high). I think the sound quality of my system can be improved but I don't know which is my weakest link. Devialet suggests that I get another D220 pro and make it D440 pro. For that price, I could get a much better speakers or at least ones with less impedance. How about adding a better clock between Mac and D220.

I would appreciate any advice.

thanks

[sam1000]

I need some advice on D220 pro vs D440 pro. I listen only to digital music (Tidal) from my old mac laptop to USB to D220 pro to Dynaudio confidence C1 bookshelf speakers (4 ohms impedance) (in a very small room 10 ft x 11 ft x 8 ft high). I think the sound quality of my system can be improved but I don't know which is my weakest link. Devialet suggests that I get another D220 pro and make it D440 pro. For that price, I could get a much better speakers or at least ones with less impedance. How about adding a better clock between Mac and D220.

I would appreciate any advice.

thanks

I'm not certain if better clock would help. I think Devialet implemented a better clock during 200->220 upgrade.  (I have tried Mutec Ref-10 along with MC3+ USB and then simplified my setup.) My preference would be
1. If you have not already done so, upgrade power cable to something like Audioquest Z3 or Shunyata Delta
2. Upgrade Source - NUC computer, Roon Nucleus etc.
3. Get new speakers
4. If you think your existing speakers are power hungry, then get second 220 (However, your room is relatively small, 220 should be able to drive those speakers in that room)

[Pim]

I used to run a 200 to my Dynaudio C1's and it sounded quite good, especially with SAM. Now I'm running an Original d' Atelier, upgraded to 1000 Pro with CI board and it does sound better. But not so much better that I would suggest upgrading the amp. I bought mine with the plan to upgrade to much larger speakers in a much larger room, otherwise I would have stayed with the 200.

The question to ask you is what is it that you're missing in the combo you're running now? Lots can be done with set up, room integration etc. without the need for an upgrade. tell us more about what it is you want and we'll be much better prepared to give you advice.

Looking forward to you reply.

Cheers,

Pim

[Jean-Marie]

By decreasing order of magnitude of the impact:
1) invest in room treatment if you can ( not always possible unless you have a dedicated room)
2) use digital room correction
3) change speakers to better ones
4) upgrade your amplifier to D250, D440 or D1000
5) any other improvements to your satisfaction (source, clocks, cables’ etc...)

Cheers,

Jean-Marie

[mdconnelly]

My hunch is that your weakest link is your small room so adding power may not result in what you're looking for. Better speakers might, but you would definitely want to give them a listen first in your room. Room treatment would definitely help but I would seek out a professional to help. Someone that can measure the sonics of your room. Same with digital room correction I would think.

WIth that said, I also went down the path of upgrading from a D220 to D440. I was very pleased with the result... Tonally, it's still the glorious Devialet sound, but bass tightened up, there was better top end extension, sound stage grew. Most of all, everything felt more relaxed and musical.

For the kind of money you're looking at, have you considered a great pair of headphones and headphone amp/DAC?

[chungjh]

I used to run a 200 to my Dynaudio C1's and it sounded quite good, especially with SAM. Now I'm running an Original d' Atelier, upgraded to 1000 Pro with CI board and it does sound better. But not so much better that I would suggest upgrading the amp. I bought mine with the plan to upgrade to much larger speakers in a much larger room, otherwise I would have stayed with the 200.

The question to ask you is what is it that you're missing in the combo you're running now? Lots can be done with set up, room integration etc. without the need for an upgrade. tell us more about what it is you want and we'll be much better prepared to give you advice.

Looking forward to you reply.

Cheers,

Pim

Pim
There is nothing wrong with my system per se, but I feel like there are times when I feel the sound is harsh sometimes and not as clear as I would like. Not like they are playing in my listening room. May be it is the recording quality is not that good.

thanks, Jay

[chungjh]

Thanks to all of you who have commented on this. I didn't realize that a small room could be such a factor. I have thought about going through the headphone route, but I just could't imagine a headphone being able to carry the big sound speakers can.

My room is a dedicated listening room so I can do something with it. What specific things could I do to the room?

thanks, Jay

[David A]

The first thing to do costs you nothing but time and that's to get the speakers and listening position in the spots that deliver the best sound and that takes experimentation. Where you put the speakers (how far they are from the side walls and the wall behind them) determines how strongly they're going to load the room modes, the room's own natural resonant frequencies. The listening position determines how strong the modes will sound to you. Room modes usually are smoothing out and much less of an issue by 500 Hz. You can minimise the effect of the room modes associated with the width of the room by placing the speakers so that the mid-point of the drivers is one quarter of the width of the room away from the side wall. Assuming you have your speakers across the 10' dimension of your room, that means placing them so the midpoint of the drivers is 2'6" away from the side wall though you may need to juggle that placement by an inch or two if there's a bit of flex in your walls. With that placement the standing modes generated across the width or the room by each speaker will cancel each other out. Since the width and length of your room are rarely close to each other in dimension their modal frequencies are going to be close and this could result in noticeably smoother bass response.

It's common knowledge that placing the speakers closer to the wall behind them increases bass and moving them further out into the room decreases bass. Dynaudio recommended placement between 1 and 1.5 metres from the wall behind them for my previous Contour 1.3 SEs (measured to the front baffle) and I suspect that your C1s would come with a similar recommendation. What isn't such common knowledge is that the highs can sound hard if the speakers are close to the wall behind them and bringing them out into the room can make the highs sound sweeter and more open. Where you end up placing them affects the strength of the bass, the smoothness of the overall frequency response in the bass region, and the openness of the sound. It's usually best to avoid having the speakers the same distance from the side walls as they are from the wall behind them and I prefer having them further from the wall behind them than they are from the side walls.

A good point to start for the listening position is the same distance from the each speaker as the speakers are apart. Many people prefer a bit further away than that but some like a little bit closer. In a room the size of yours which is small you probably won't want to get much closer than that but wherever you decide to put the listening position to start with, try moving it a foot to 2 feet closer or further away in small steps, say 3" or so, to find the spot where it sounds best to you. You'll find that bass can vary significantly in strength with that change. I once listened to a system in a room where I couldn't hear a prominent bass line at the listening position the dealer had set up but the bass was actually quite strong and that bass line quite audible one step forward from the listening position. That one step made the difference between thinking the bass of those speakers was inadequate to thinking it was quite reasonable. The difference usually isn't that big in most rooms in my experience but it can be that kind of difference in some cases.

Adjust the toe in to get the best stereo imaging. Some speakers work best pointed straight ahead, parallel to the side walls. I found I got best results with my Dyns with the speakers pointed at the listening position or to a point slightly behind my head. Personal taste is involved so you need to experiment to find out what toe in angle suits you.

Getting the setup right can make quite a big difference in some cases.

Carpet on the floor is beneficial. If your room isn't carpeted then a rug between the speakers and the listening position will be beneficial. Either way wool or natural fibres is better than synthetics. Exposed windows can result in a bright top end so covering windows with fabric curtains or blinds is a good idea, especially if the first reflection points fall on the windows.

Beyond that you start getting into room acoustic treatments or digital room correction. The Devialet doesn't offer inbuilt room correction so if you want to go down that route you're going to have to buy an external device. I prefer room acoustic treatments myself. In a small room I'd give priority to bass traps placed in the corners to help smooth the bass response even further. Lots of products sold as bass traps, especially foam wedges, aren't all that effective because bass is hard to treat. After that the 2 most important areas to treat are the front and back walls. Lots of people recommend treating the side walls at the first reflection points but studies show that there tends to be a preference for leaving the side walls untreated because the side reflections help give the sense of a wider soundstage. YMMV. Treating the middle of the wall behind the speakers with some absorption tends to help give a deeper soundstage and using absorption on the wall behind the listening position can help, especially if you're sitting close to the wall.

Some people recommend diffusion rather than absorption. In a small room like yours you'll probably find absorption more effective. Diffusion is less effective if you're close to the diffusers and some diffuser manufacturers recommend a distance of at least 8-10 feet between you and the diffuser which is hard to get in a room the size of yours unless the diffuser is on the wall behind the speakers.

You can add too much absorption, especially in a small room, and that can make things sound dead so I'd recommend that treatments on the side walls and behind the speakers be around 2' wide, the width of a lot of commercially available products, or no more than 4' wide. Too much absorption will also tend to reduce the impact of transients. You can use a wider span of absorption on the wall behind the listening position in order to cover a wider area than a sofa if that's your listening seat.

With absorption, go for products which work over a wide frequency range. It's easy to absorb highs and harder to absorb the mids and bass frequencies. If you use absorption that doesn't work well down into the mid range and upper bass then things can sound dull and lack sparkle. Placing absorbing panels on stands and spacing it out from the wall so there's a 4-6" gap between it and the wall helps to make it more effective at lower frequencies than absorption placed directly on the wall, and also allows you to make slight adjustments to its positioning if you need to.

That's the basics of what I've learnt over the years about room treatment. I use less treatment now than I used when I started but I'm also more particular about where I put the treatments because where you put them makes a difference. You can get a lot of benefit from a small area which is well placed and you start to lose liveliness in the sound if you use too much. You're better off spending more on better quality products that don't cover as much space than you are spending the same amount on cheaper products and covering a larger space with absorption that works over a narrower frequency range. Get it right and you can make a very significant improvement in your sound quality.

[mdconnelly]

@David A - excellent advice. Speaker placement can make a big difference as can listening position. The challenge I often faced with room treatments is that I spent a lot of time (and money) getting it mostly wrong before I learned enough to get it mostly right hence the suggestion for finding a pro initially. And as David indicates... start slow... it's easy to over-treat a room and kill the sound.

Here's an interesting article on using bass traps... there's some good info there but don't let it overwhelm you (as it did me at first ;-)

http://arqen.com/bass-traps-101/placement-guide/

Good luck! This is why we love this hobby, right?

[chungjh]

@David A  - excellent advice.  Speaker placement can make a big difference as can listening position.  The challenge I often faced with room treatments is that I spent a lot of time (and money) getting it mostly wrong before I learned enough to get it mostly right hence the suggestion for finding a pro initially.  And as David indicates... start slow... it's easy to over-treat a room and kill the sound.

Here's an interesting article on using bass traps... there's some good info there but don't let it overwhelm you (as it did me at first ;-)

http://arqen.com/bass-traps-101/placement-guide/

Good luck!  This is why we love this hobby, right?

Thanks for all the room treatment and speaker placement advice.  I noticed that I am getting quite a bit of sibilant sound with female vocals (e.g. Diana Krall). I read somewhere that this is common with Devialet. Any recommendations?