D400 Route or new speakers

[Womaz]

In my room I am very limited in where I can place the speakers as its also my living room.
Recently made some changes like some bass traps etc. I now feel the room is right.....or as right as I am prepared to get it.

So now I am looking at the next upgrade path

[Confused]

I would say that you actually need a complete upgrade strategy. There is no doubt that for anyone with a D200, that upgrading to a D400 is a good idea. It is not just about the additional power, because in dual mono mode the configuration of the amplifiers is different, halving distortion levels and giving an amplifier that sounds far smoother and "higher definition". The additional headroom is of course a bonus, but depending on the speaker can give smoother treble and better base control. and so on.

That said, running a pair of PMC 23's with a D400 does look a little bit like overkill.

So at the moment, you are asking the question, speakers or amp. Well if you decide to go with different speakers, then the D400 upgrade will remain a tempting option at a future date,

So I think what you should do is decide what your ultimate end point would be, consisting of a D400 and speakers worthy of a D400. Then you just have to decide which order to do the upgrades in.

Ideal speakers for a D400? That is probably a very long list! A list running through a very wide price range. Over the last couple of years I've seen a D400 demonstrated with SF Olimpica's, KEF Blades, Wilson Audio's and others. How far dare you go? (!)

[Womaz]

I would say that you actually need a complete upgrade strategy.  There is no doubt that for anyone with a D200, that upgrading to a D400 is a good idea.  It is not just about the additional power, because in dual mono mode the configuration of the amplifiers is different, halving distortion levels and giving an amplifier that sounds far smoother and "higher definition".  The additional headroom is of course a bonus, but depending on the speaker can give smoother treble and better base control. and so on.

That said, running a pair of PMC 23's with a D400 does look a little bit like overkill.

So at the moment, you are asking the question, speakers or amp.  Well if you decide to go with different speakers, then the D400 upgrade will remain a tempting option at a future date,

So I think what you should do is decide what your ultimate end point would be, consisting of a D400 and speakers worthy of a D400.  Then you just have to decide which order to do the upgrades in.

Ideal speakers for a D400?  That is probably a very long list!  A list running through a very wide price range.   Over the last couple of years I've seen a D400 demonstrated with SF Olimpica's, KEF Blades, Wilson Audio's and others.  How far dare you go? (!)

Great post again thanks. You make some good points as always. I think in my head the new speakers will be the next step. The ones you mention will probably just be out of my price range. I could find say 3 to 4 k now or possibly around 6k say nine months down the line.
It makes sense to wait but you know what it's like it's the shiny new toy now syndrome .. That's why a second hand companion could be bought now, but yes it makes sense to go speakers first.
Like I say above if I get new speakers then a second hand companion would probably be a no brainer at a later date......depending on cash I guess.

[rwjr44]

I guess it will help but don't put all your trust in it; The first calculation it says to hang my speakers 75cm behind the wall and the Cardas calculation tells me I have to sit in the neighbour's garden 
I get along fine with them but since we're all in high set homes I wonder how they feel about me setting up a ladder in their yard.

Really?   I've used that site many times to get in the ball park. Too funny.

Try it: 11.8 wide, 6.9 deep.

Weird!   I reversed the numbers and... the positions look better in all except Real trap 38% option 2. I'll send noAudiophile an email about this iff I find his email address. If I ever get the time, I'll run the equations manually and see what the problem is. The numbers produced may be accurate but his program logic is too rudimentary to indicate that the results are nonsense or there is a "bug" in the code.
I normally use the Cardas formula which is easy to verify and works pretty good as a first ballpark position.

[Pim]

Really?   I've used that site many times to get in the ball park. Too funny.

Try it: 11.8 wide, 6.9 deep.

Weird!   I reversed the numbers and... the positions look better in all except Real trap 38% option 2. I'll send noAudiophile and email about this iff I find his email address. If I ever get the time, I'll run the equations manually and see what the problem is. The numbers produced may be accurate but his program logic it too rudimentary to indicate that the results are nonsense or there is a "bug" in the code.
I normally use the Cardas formula which is easy to verify and works pretty good as a first ballpark position.

Jim Smith says in his book the average distance between all the speakers he has set up over the years by ear turned out to be 87% the width of the distance from tweeter to listener. So I started out with that as a starting point. I don't have the space to move into the room any further than what they are so can't really work with that. So the voicing sounds ok but the bass is still a bit muddled. Those sizes (11.8x6.9) by the way, are for my new living room that's not finished yet.

[rwjr44]

Try it: 11.8 wide, 6.9 deep.

Weird!   I reversed the numbers and... the positions look better in all except Real trap 38% option 2. I'll send noAudiophile and email about this iff I find his email address. If I ever get the time, I'll run the equations manually and see what the problem is. The numbers produced may be accurate but his program logic it too rudimentary to indicate that the results are nonsense or there is a "bug" in the code.
I normally use the Cardas formula which is easy to verify and works pretty good as a first ballpark position.

Jim Smith says in his book the average distance between all the speakers he has set up over the years by ear turned out to be 87% the width of the distance from tweeter to listener. So I started out with that as a starting point. I don't have the space to move into the room any further than what they are so can't really work with that. So the voicing sounds ok but the bass is still a bit muddled. Those sizes (11.8x6.9) by the way, are for my new living room that's not finished yet.

That is the problem of this hobby. We always have to compromise. Fortunately, we can close our eyes and still enjoy the music.

[tyefighter]

Im in a similar position to you with a modestly priced speaker. All be it very good speakers in their price range they are as Confused said a bit of a miss match with the Devialet. Sure my system does sound better in D400 configuration over a single D200. However if I only had a D200 my money would be going towards a speaker upgrade as I believe that is where the bottle neck is and the greatest sound quality gain can be extracted.

As for speaker suggestions ...well that is the million dollar question and one that can only be answered with auditions
I will be interested to see where this takes you as a speaker upgrade is my next move once I have sufficient funds

[JeanF]

In the next couple of months I could have the cash for the next upgrade to my system.

It is listed below. I am wondering where I will get the biggest improvement either getting the Companion and going to a 400, or spending a similar amount of cash on new speakers. There is also the possibility that a Companion could be bought second hand

My room is 14ft x 23ft, and the speakers can only be a foot from the back wall.

Any opinions welcome as always

Personally I should spend my money to new (other) speakers, because I think that a good match between Devialet 200 and the right speakers will give you a better sound and so more satisfaction than a 400 setting with less good matching speakers.

The reason why I say this is that I owned PMC Twenty 24 speakers for many months and I found them always to enthusiast, energetic, and clinical/bright sounding in the highs, especially in hard spaces with poor acoustics. If you match them with a more ''laid back'' and darker sounding amp you can expect a reasonable good sound, but if you have a more cleaner and accurate sounding amp like the Devialet 200 is, the sound will be ''too much'' i.m.o.

During the several visits I brought to my dealer (one of the best selling and experienced Premium Devialet dealers here in Netherlands) I have heard so many different combinations of Devialet amps with a wide range of speaker brands and types. Some combinations were sounding very good, some were reasonable, and others were sounding so bad that I almost couldn't recognize the Devialet sound.
Devialet - Magico (S1 and S3) is a very good (but expensive) combination, but besides my personal preference (Devialet - Kharma) I have heard a combination which sounded so good, full bodied and well balanced to me that I was getting the feeling that these speakers were designed to match seamless with Devialet.
The speaker where I'm talking about is the Egglestonworks ''The Isabella''
I don't know if you do like the looks, but their sound will definately impress you and it,s a wonderful match with the Devialet 200.

http://egglestonworks.com/products/the-i...signature/

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraud...nature.htm

[Damon]

Womaz,

Like you, I am very restricted in terms of speaker placement in my room, which is very similar to yours in dimensions. It also has asymmetrical walls/ open area and so I am certain that I get erratic reflections depending on the balance of the music. Also like you, I've become more acutely aware of the importance of the room to the quality of the sound reproduction; especially as it affects some of the finer aspects of sonic space, or staging, or tactility of the sound (use any other audio-adjective that suits).

I expect that in your room there is a benefit in a front ported speaker, like your PMC's as I imagine that this makes proximity to the rear wall less critical. However any speaker with a narrow baffle may still have sound that wraps around the speaker, and then bounces off the back wall. (wall behind the speakers, I mean). So would something in a more conventional box, like a Harbeth be a consideration?

I'm also wondering what sort of improvement or change you want. Are you looking for 'more' of the sonic character you have? So, would 'more PMC' be what you want or are you looking for a different personality? Sonus Faber would, to me, definitey be a different sort of character, regardless of niggles like bass or treble performance.

I think that i could live with a variety of speakers, but I don't think I would change the Devialet. To me, it is giving me the source, the material, the way I like it. Different speakers then flavour the music the Devialet provides. My GamuT's give a very easy, natural sound, which is also easy, or gently, on the treble side. The other day I listened to some PMC FACT 3's (stunning price and used for one day only before being returned by the original buyer). They are a completely different character; fast, incisive and more taut, I thought, than the 20 series. So if you wanted 'more PMC' then such a thing might be the path to follow. Or, as was suggested by JeanF, Magico makes some amazing speakers. Just not so easy on the bank balance. Selling the 20 23's will help, certainly.

You can get 'more Devialet' and I doubt that would be a disappointment, but the sonic flavour of your system, in your room, would be very similar, I would guess. So, if you want a change as much as an upgrade, then different speakers would seem to be the way to get that change.

Interesting dilemma.

[Rodney Gold]

Try DIrac ..14 days free trial..amazing what it can do to "fix" the sound.. that and maybe a few first reflection panels done to look like artwork will optimise your sound..$1k or less...