Detailed? Or just missing bass?

[Pim]

Guys, (And girls I think? Are there even girls here?)

I like reading reviews or watching them on Youtube. It's not always for something I'm interested in buying. I just enjoy reading about what goes on in this hobby of ours.

My best mate and I recently listened to some gear that's reviewed as 'detailed'. Sometimes it does get a mention of lacking a bit of bass depth, but not all the time. 

I have a problem with that. Let me explain it like I explained it to another mate of mine who's not in the hobby.

We were in my living room having a conversation and he could easily understand me. What about if the neighbour starts mowing the lawn? We could still talk at the same volume level, but suddenly we can't hear each other as well. There is still exactly the same level of detail in our voices, but they are now a lot harder to hear. The sound of the lawnmower overpowers the sound of our voices.

Music isn't any different. 

If you take the bass away from music, you will be able to discern more detail in the highs. If we can suddenly hear the saliva on a singers lips, but the lower register of the bass guitar is gone, how can that be described as more detailed? No it's not. It's actually less detailed because there's a whole part of the audio spectrum missing. 

I tried some speaker cables a while back. They were ribbon cables. There was such a lack of bass, I didn't like them at all. But, I can just imagine someone evaluating them and hearing stuff they'd never heard before in the highs and thinking 'well, I can hear stuff I've never heard before so these speaker cables must be better than the ones I have.'

Just to get back to the experience my best mate and I had when we listened to the described gear; the owner loved the sound. Obviously he had different priorities. 

Now a different look at detail. The good kind. I've been playing with a new streamer and power conditioner. And I got more detail out of my system. Quite a lot more actually. But it wasn't detail in the sense that I've described above. It was more of everything. More separation of the different aspects of the music. And the bass? Well, I turned my subwoofers down one dB because the bass became a bit much. i.e. there was more of it and still I heard more into the music.

These two descriptions of detail make for very different listening experiences. The former will lead to listening fatigue, the latter to going to bed tired because you stayed up too late enjoying the music.

What I'm trying to convey with this little rant here is that we should be very careful buying on reviews unless we know exactly what the reviewer means. 

What's are your experiences? Have you been caught out by this? Have you bought a hifi component on the basis of 'detail' only to find out later that you don't like it as much as you thought? Did you miss a bit of solidity in your music?

Detail isn't always detail.

[BoyScout]

Guys, (And girls I think? Are there even girls here?)

I like reading reviews or watching them on Youtube. It's not always for something I'm interested in buying. I just enjoy reading about what goes on in this hobby of ours.

My best mate and I recently listened to some gear that's reviewed as 'detailed'. Sometimes it does get a mention of lacking a bit of bass depth, but not all the time. 

I have a problem with that. Let me explain it like I explained it to another mate of mine who's not in the hobby.

We were in my living room having a conversation and he could easily understand me. What about if the neighbour starts mowing the lawn? We could still talk at the same volume level, but suddenly we can't hear each other as well. There is still exactly the same level of detail in our voices, but they are now a lot harder to hear. The sound of the lawnmower overpowers the sound of our voices.

Music isn't any different. 

If you take the bass away from music, you will be able to discern more detail in the highs. If we can suddenly hear the saliva on a singers lips, but the lower register of the bass guitar is gone, how can that be described as more detailed? No it's not. It's actually less detailed because there's a whole part of the audio spectrum missing. 

I tried some speaker cables a while back. They were ribbon cables. There was such a lack of bass, I didn't like them at all. But, I can just imagine someone evaluating them and hearing stuff they'd never heard before in the highs and thinking 'well, I can hear stuff I've never heard before so these speaker cables must be better than the ones I have.'

What's are your experiences? Have you been caught out by this? Have you bought a hifi component on the basis of 'detail' only to find out later that you don't like it as much as you thought? Did you miss a bit of solidity in your music?

Just to get back to the experience my best mate and I had when we listened to the described gear; the owner loved the sound. Obviously he had different priorities. 

Now a different look at detail. The good kind. I've been playing with a new streamer and power conditioner. And I got more detail out of my system. Quite a lot more actually. But it wasn't detail in the sense that I've described above. It was more of everything. More separation of the different aspects of the music. And the bass? Well, I turned my subwoofers down one dB because the bass became a bit much. i.e. there was more of it and still I heard more into the music.

These two descriptions of detail make for very different listening experiences. The former will lead to listening fatigue, the latter to going to bed tired because you stayed up too late enjoying the music.

What I'm trying to convey with this little rant here is that we should be very careful buying on reviews unless we know exactly what the reviewer means. 

What's are your experiences? Have you been caught out by this? Have you bought a hifi component on the basis of 'detail' only to find out later that you don't like it as much as you thought? Did you miss a bit of solidity in your music?

Detail isn't always detail.

I can't add anything else because I think you've already said everything. 
Yes, me too years ago, I experienced this "detail" you speak coming from a pair of ribbon speakers.

[musialsuspect]

Yes, there are girls here.

Not a lot to add because as BoyScout said, Pim, you said it well.

The equipment I own or have heard that mitigates/eliminates noise, presenting only the music, helps me hear more detail.

I can also add a musical analogy. I learned years ago not to take reviewers words verbatim when it came to new records/cds. We all have different tastes and define things differently. Instead, I found a new music reviewer whose tastes corresponded to mine; THOSE are the reviews I gave credence to. That's pretty hard to do for gear. Easier for restaurants; easier still for your lawnmower example.

[Pim]

Guys, (And girls I think? Are there even girls here?)

I like reading reviews or watching them on Youtube. It's not always for something I'm interested in buying. I just enjoy reading about what goes on in this hobby of ours.

My best mate and I recently listened to some gear that's reviewed as 'detailed'. Sometimes it does get a mention of lacking a bit of bass depth, but not all the time. 

I have a problem with that. Let me explain it like I explained it to another mate of mine who's not in the hobby.

We were in my living room having a conversation and he could easily understand me. What about if the neighbour starts mowing the lawn? We could still talk at the same volume level, but suddenly we can't hear each other as well. There is still exactly the same level of detail in our voices, but they are now a lot harder to hear. The sound of the lawnmower overpowers the sound of our voices.

Music isn't any different. 

If you take the bass away from music, you will be able to discern more detail in the highs. If we can suddenly hear the saliva on a singers lips, but the lower register of the bass guitar is gone, how can that be described as more detailed? No it's not. It's actually less detailed because there's a whole part of the audio spectrum missing. 

I tried some speaker cables a while back. They were ribbon cables. There was such a lack of bass, I didn't like them at all. But, I can just imagine someone evaluating them and hearing stuff they'd never heard before in the highs and thinking 'well, I can hear stuff I've never heard before so these speaker cables must be better than the ones I have.'

What's are your experiences? Have you been caught out by this? Have you bought a hifi component on the basis of 'detail' only to find out later that you don't like it as much as you thought? Did you miss a bit of solidity in your music?

Just to get back to the experience my best mate and I had when we listened to the described gear; the owner loved the sound. Obviously he had different priorities. 

Now a different look at detail. The good kind. I've been playing with a new streamer and power conditioner. And I got more detail out of my system. Quite a lot more actually. But it wasn't detail in the sense that I've described above. It was more of everything. More separation of the different aspects of the music. And the bass? Well, I turned my subwoofers down one dB because the bass became a bit much. i.e. there was more of it and still I heard more into the music.

These two descriptions of detail make for very different listening experiences. The former will lead to listening fatigue, the latter to going to bed tired because you stayed up too late enjoying the music.

What I'm trying to convey with this little rant here is that we should be very careful buying on reviews unless we know exactly what the reviewer means. 

What's are your experiences? Have you been caught out by this? Have you bought a hifi component on the basis of 'detail' only to find out later that you don't like it as much as you thought? Did you miss a bit of solidity in your music?

Detail isn't always detail.

I can't add anything else because I think you've already said everything. 
Yes, me too years ago, I experienced this "detail" you speak coming from a pair of ribbon speakers.

One such product that did it was a pair of ribbon headphones. Coincidence?

[Confused]

An interesting topic, thanks for posting Pim.

Is this not very easy to try for yourself, for anyone who has a Devialet Expert amp? No need to play with ribbon cables or seek out "bass light" systems, we are blessed with tone controls. In fact better than that, we are blessed with tone controls that are accessible via remote control.

So why not pick a favourite track, listen with +2dB of bass, then listen again with -2dB of bass. What happens to the perceived level of detail?

If you really wanted to, you could repeat with +1dB versus -1dB, or +5dB versus -5dB, or whatever takes your fancy.

This might be an interesting experiment.

As a counter argument. I have been to a number of Hifi shows in the UK where REL perform demonstrations of their subwoofers. The demos run to a typical format, play a track on stand mount speakers, then repeat the track with the REL sub in play. One thing that the REL demo guys like to highlight is how the subwoofer does more than simply add bass, but that also the midrange clarity of the system improves. Which subjectively, does seem to be the case at a couple of the demos that I have experienced. Although I am not sure if they are using high pass filters for the main speakers when using the subs at these demos?

So get those bass tone controls in play and let us know what you experience!.

[Pim]

An interesting topic, thanks for posting Pim.

Is this not very easy to try for yourself, for anyone who has a Devialet Expert amp? No need to play with ribbon cables or seek out "bass light" systems, we are blessed with tone controls. In fact better than that, we are blessed with tone controls that are accessible via remote control.

So why not pick a favourite track, listen with +2dB of bass, then listen again with -2dB of bass. What happens to the perceived level of detail?

If you really wanted to, you could repeat with +1dB versus -1dB, or +5dB versus -5dB, or whatever takes your fancy.

This might be an interesting experiment.

As a counter argument. I have been to a number of Hifi shows in the UK where REL perform demonstrations of their subwoofers. The demos run to a typical format, play a track on stand mount speakers, then repeat the track with the REL sub in play. One thing that the REL demo guys like to highlight is how the subwoofer does more than simply add bass, but that also the midrange clarity of the system improves. Which subjectively, does seem to be the case at a couple of the demos that I have experienced. Although I am not sure if they are using high pass filters for the main speakers when using the subs at these demos?

So get those bass tone controls in play and let us know what you experience!.

Confused, you always have an interesting way of looking at things and you might be onto something with the REL story. I have to do some testing, but I don have an idea as to what's going on here. 

I have a feeling the 'detailed' gear pumps up the upper mid range and that the REL setup makes the lower mid range sound more rounded. That's what happened when I installed subs in my system (I have to change my setup in my signature)

More to come.

[Delija]

Of course it's not just REL - but every good sub, optimally integrated.

[BoyScout]

I also tested a fantastic REL, but I think, despite the many adjustments I made over a couple of weeks, I never got the integration that would make me keep it... and I returned it to the dealer. 
When I finally started to like the sound, the subwoofer was doing practically nothing. 
Maybe the problem is mine...

[Delija]

The main problem with REL is lack of necessary features - variable phase, variable crossover slope, PEQs...
New No.31 and No.32 have 2-band PEQs, but still missing all other features.

I understand that 99% od audiphiles don't even know what these features are - and REL is great for them.

For advanceed users, these features are mandatory for proper subwoofer integration.



p.s. Yes, you can use an external DSP for that, but only for low-level connections and even then - why would you buy REL in the first place, when there are other subs which do have these features.

[chrisc]

Detail must be balanced, or it will rapidly become tiring to listen to. I was given a piece of MOGAMI Japanese made speaker cable. The fellow who gave it to me explained the construction. There are 120 strands each 0.34mm diameter, total cross section 4mm.

This method with 120 strands allows the surface conductance effect to be more pronounced. Therefore the speakers are receiving very close to what the amplifier is delivering. Obviously can never be 100% but extremely close.

The result was a worthwhile increase in detail and more articulate bass

No doubt there are many cables with similar construction. But this cable did not come with a 5-paragraph pedigree extolling its virtues

It replaced a van Den Hul The Cloud cable. And it's less than half the price