Developping a stereo system replacing spark + dialog

[ogs]

Thanks Ogs

You all say that Dialog is working well which simplify the work.

In 1 you say that I can connect Dialog to Phantoms through internet. I then probably misunderstood. I thought the Dialog was organizing a separated network with the phantoms from the house intranet (acting as a router of this specific network). If it is the case, I cannot connect Phantom and Dialog as only one RJ45 is available on Dialog. If it use the house network then it's a lot better than wifi. The only negative point is that the stream is going to dialog and then to the two phantoms multiplying the bandwidth usage on the network.

2 & 4 are questioning the volume management. This is the one I am having problem with. I would need, as you mention, either to modify the signal    or to understand how to communicate with phantom to control it"s internal hardware volume management (better)

3, does it means that I will have to adjust the volume of each room separately in this case ?

Best regards

1. yes you connect both the two Phantoms and Dialog to your ethernet switch. With wifi the Dialog will create a separate network with Phantoms unless you change the SSID to the one you use for your wifi network.

For 3 I believe you can still use the Phantom volume control to adjust 'both rooms', but it's here we need confirmation from a Phantom owner

[streamy]

Thanks Streamy

not "too extensive" but complete. I understand that Dialog is ok and it's then I agree it's probably better to go throught it than worth developping a specific element

However, I have to questions :

1- for how long have you been using your system ? I had bad experience in time with PLC.
2- volume control looks to be the bad point in what you say. Changing singnal (known as software volume control) is modifying the coding probably not the best way when you try to get it full digital up to the phantom. I didn't get how you manage it. Through spark ? Or is ther another way to manage phantom volume ?

Best regards

to 1: I got my first Phantoms in March 2015 earlier that Devialet was able to deliver. I got it from the french store Colette. So, I went through the entire history of updates. PLC worked for me, once I put all systems on the same power line branch and removed all surge protection hardware that kills PLC signals. However, I must say that I live in my own house and have no neighbors that use another PLC on the same power line. I run a second PLC, though, that comes with the IPTV set and the two PLC work peacefully on the same power line. So, the Phantom/Dialog system has a certain robustness. Along the updates, about 2 years ago Devialet dramatically improve reliability of buffering on the Phantoms. This was maybe the game changer. You can now see in Spark how the buffer is fast filled and it presumably already starts buffering the next track in play queue as well. Since Spark has gapless play buffering works really well. But also streaming from the Phantoms optical inputs is rather low latency and in my case 100% dropout free! Much better than all Airplay before 2.0. However, AP2 is not yet implemented and I do not know how latency of it is. AP1 had acceptable latency when using screen mirroring but else the latency was fixed to 2 seconds, which is too much for acceptable UX.

to 2: I’m not changing the signal but indeed using some code from the github that @ogs by chance in his post indicated ( https://github.com/da2001/phantom-bridge ). This code allows to change the volume of the Phantoms through a webapp like the ‘Roon Web Controller’ where I have integrated a volume slider for changing the Phantoms volume. It sends commands through an upnp port to the Dialog, same as it would come from Spark. So no change of the signal different than what the Phantoms anyway does internally. As I use Roon this Roon extension is convenient and works independent of operating system and device. But you have to install a server app, e.g. on the RPi, like I do it. I run it on the same RPi that I use as Roon RAAT endpoint. You could run it on the volumio RPi endpoint. How and if you can extend or modify volumio I have no clue. Maybe you could use Moode where you can get the source code to tweak.

[streamy]

For 3 I believe you can still use the Phantom volume control to adjust 'both rooms', but it's here we need confirmation from a Phantom owner

to 3: In Spark you can merge rooms and control each room separately or the merged set. But with the hardware volume contoller I have no experience. This peace of HW I consider to have too few features for its price. I doubt you can control multiple rooms without additional software on mobile devices or PCs since the HW volume controller has only a dial knob and no other means.

[BlackMamba]

Thanks Streamy

not "too extensive" but complete. I understand that Dialog is ok and it's then I agree it's probably better to go throught it than worth developping a specific element

However, I have to questions :

1- for how long have you been using your system ? I had bad experience in time with PLC.
2- volume control looks to be the bad point in what you say. Changing singnal (known as software volume control) is modifying the coding probably not the best way when you try to get it full digital up to the phantom. I didn't get how you manage it. Through spark ? Or is ther another way to manage phantom volume ?

Best regards

to 1: I got my first Phantoms in March 2015 earlier that Devialet was able to deliver. I got it from the french store Colette. So, I went through the entire history of updates. PLC worked for me, once I put all systems on the same power line branch and removed all surge protection hardware that kills PLC signals. However, I must say that I live in my own house and have no neighbors that use another PLC on the same power line. I run a second PLC, though, that comes with the IPTV set and the two PLC work peacefully on the same power line. So, the Phantom/Dialog system has a certain robustness. Along the updates, about 2 years ago Devialet dramatically improve reliability of buffering on the Phantoms. This was maybe the game changer. You can now see in Spark how the buffer is fast filled and it presumably already starts buffering the next track in play queue as well. Since Spark has gapless play buffering works really well. But also streaming from the Phantoms optical inputs is rather low latency and in my case 100% dropout free! Much better than all Airplay before 2.0. However, AP2 is not yet implemented and I do not know how latency of it is. AP1 had acceptable latency when using screen mirroring but else the latency was fixed to 2 seconds, which is too much for acceptable UX.

to 2: I’m not changing the signal but indeed using some code from the github that @ogs by chance in his post indicated ( https://github.com/da2001/phantom-bridge ). This code allows to change the volume of the Phantoms through a webapp like the ‘Roon Web Controller’ where I have integrated a volume slider for changing the Phantoms volume. It sends commands through an upnp port to the Dialog, same as it would come from Spark. So no change of the signal different than what the Phantoms anyway does internally. As I use Roon this Roon extension is convenient and works independent of operating system and device. But you have to install a server app, e.g. on the RPi, like I do it. I run it on the same RPi that I use as Roon RAAT endpoint. You could run it on the volumio RPi endpoint. How and if you can extend or modify volumio I have no clue. Maybe you could use Moode where you can get the source code to tweak.

Thank for this detailed answers. I am not sure of the exact "how to" for implementation but I understand your explanations. It will probably take me some time but I now know that a RPI can feed, fully digital, a system of 2 phantoms + dialog  and that the volume can be controlled almost natively (hardware). Next will be to go for real .

Last ? To go out of the RPI, is it better to use the HDMI (with a HDMI to TOSLINK box) or a HIFIBERRY DIGI+ standard version ? 

Thanks a lot for all your inputs

[streamy]

Last ? To go out of the RPI, is it better to use the HDMI (with a HDMI to TOSLINK box) or a HIFIBERRY DIGI+ standard version ? 

Thanks a lot for all your inputs

HDMI can cause problems due to rights managment, but I have no experience. I use a Digi+ board and connect the optical to one of the Phantoms.

[daibaron]

A: There is a Direct Optical Mode with very low latency, but no control over volume as the operating software is bypassed - the Phantom just plays what it gets in optical input.

Joachim showed me the following procedure to engage this mode:
1: launch Phantom app (not Spark)
2: restart Phantom (3 clicks)
3: pair Phantom with app
4: on app, tap ten times between “mute” and “night” icons
5: select Optical Direct mode
6: select channel (L/R/mix)
7: select max. output level 0dB/-12dB

How do you control the volume at the end ?
Does it disable the Bluetooth ?

[jcd1877]

A: There is a Direct Optical Mode with very low latency, but no control over volume as the operating software is bypassed - the Phantom just plays what it gets in optical input.

Joachim showed me the following procedure to engage this mode:
1: launch Phantom app (not Spark)
2: restart Phantom (3 clicks)
3: pair Phantom with app
4: on app, tap ten times between “mute” and “night” icons
5: select Optical Direct mode
6: select channel (L/R/mix)
7: select max. output level 0dB/-12dB

How do you control the volume at the end ?
Does it disable the Bluetooth ?

This is going to be my test solution using direct optical:

• As I don't have an issue with running cables, both phantoms will be set to L or R using above procedure.
  
• The optical feeds from each Phantom will be fed from an optical splitter (https://www.cablechick.com.au/cables/ave...itter.html)
  
• The input to the optical splitter will be from a Yamaha WXC-50
  

I want to have a go at this solution for a few reasons:

• I'm so over the Spark app
  
• Although input selection is on auto - it often gets confused
  
• Desperately want to get rid of the face cream remote control - on to my second one now which has also had a repair job. They just aren't very robust in a family environment
  
• Speaking of family - they all hate having a second remote for just the Phantom volume management. Constantly get asked why our universal remote wont control them - try explaining that one!!!
  
• I love a good sounding system - but I'm no audiophile - thus I only have the whites and a dialog. System does both music and TV - therefore needs to be family friendly
  
• Because I'm not an audiophile, I'm happy to see how the volume control goes in the digital domain within the WXC-50. They can be set to either a pre-amp mode or player mode. Pre-amp mode gives you 48bit resolution volume control in the digital output.
  

If I had realised how family-unfriendly the Phantom setup was, would have done something else maybe. BUT - I do love the sound quality from such a compact setup.

So waiting on my WXC-50 to arrive. Will let you know how I go.

[Keind23]

Hi there!

I'm kind of contemplating the same idea as I would like to integrate two Phantoms in my home cinema system.

What I would like to do is replacing my fronts with the Phantoms (while removing the sub and potentially the center as well).

I have today a Marantz AVR NR1506 with Pre-Outs for Left and Right.

Would you think that using an Analog to Digital Converter from the Pre Outs to the Phantoms in optical direct could work?

I would achieve kind of the same purpose commanding and sourcing the Phantoms through the AVR.

My concern is the latency, but I would imagine that Audyssey could cope with that, setting a super long distance for the Phantoms compared to the Surrounds and Center.

What do you think?

[alandbush]

This is going to be my test solution using direct optical:

• As I don't have an issue with running cables, both phantoms will be set to L or R using above procedure.
  
• The optical feeds from each Phantom will be fed from an optical splitter (https://www.cablechick.com.au/cables/ave...itter.html)
  
• The input to the optical splitter will be from a Yamaha WXC-50
  

I want to have a go at this solution for a few reasons:

• I'm so over the Spark app
  
• Although input selection is on auto - it often gets confused
  
• Desperately want to get rid of the face cream remote control - on to my second one now which has also had a repair job. They just aren't very robust in a family environment
  
• Speaking of family - they all hate having a second remote for just the Phantom volume management. Constantly get asked why our universal remote wont control them - try explaining that one!!!
  
• I love a good sounding system - but I'm no audiophile - thus I only have the whites and a dialog. System does both music and TV - therefore needs to be family friendly
  
• Because I'm not an audiophile, I'm happy to see how the volume control goes in the digital domain within the WXC-50. They can be set to either a pre-amp mode or player mode. Pre-amp mode gives you 48bit resolution volume control in the digital output.
  

If I had realised how family-unfriendly the Phantom setup was, would have done something else maybe. BUT - I do love the sound quality from such a compact setup.

So waiting on my WXC-50 to arrive. Will let you know how I go.

Your post has reminded me to create a separate thread detailing Direct-Optical-mode-How-to?.

[jcd1877]

Hi there!

I'm kind of contemplating the same idea as I would like to integrate two Phantoms in my home cinema system.

What I would like to do is replacing my fronts with the Phantoms (while removing the sub and potentially the center as well).

I have today a Marantz AVR NR1506 with Pre-Outs for Left and Right.

Would you think that using an Analog to Digital Converter from the Pre Outs to the Phantoms in optical direct could work?

I would achieve kind of the same purpose commanding and sourcing the Phantoms through the AVR.

My concern is the latency, but I would imagine that Audyssey could cope with that, setting a super long distance for the Phantoms compared to the Surrounds and Center.

What do you think?

I hunted around trying to find an affordable AV receiver that allowed me to do what you are contemplating, but keeping it ll in the digital domain. Wanted to avoid as many analogue-digital-analogue conversion etc.

I couldn't find anything in the end of the day, so went down the WXC-50 path.

I'm assuming the sound quality of what you are proposing would ultimately be driven by how much you want to spend on the ADC's???