Devi + Vinyl

[MIKE]

Have you ever wondered what you heard when listening to vinyl through Devialet?

Let's take a look at the path, the audio signal has to pass from it's source:

1. The analog signal (voices, instruments) is recorded and mastered in digital studios (converted into digital files) - currently, the traditional analog recording does not exist any more.
2. In course of LP processing, the digital signal is converted into analog path (grooves on the LP),
3. Then, you put the LP on your turntable - the cartrige sends the analog signal stright to phono section in your Devi, when it is ... digitalised once again.
4. Then, the digital stream is amplified and ... converted into analog signal before sending to your speakers.

... and just after FOUR (!!!) A-D-A-D-A conversions you can enjoy the "analog" sound.
Of course you can buy LP recorded in '70, '80, '90 (on analog equipment) but even then you have 2 conversion stages, anyway.

Does it still make sense? 

I look forward to your comments and opinions.

Reg, Mike

[pjcamera]

With my original 70s vinyl (1), (2) are analogue so there's only one A-D,D-A cycle added. Analogue purists probably wouldn't start with a Devialet anyway, they'd want something that glows and warms the room in winter.

[MIKE]

With my original 70s vinyl (1), (2) are analogue so there's only one A-D,D-A cycle added. Analogue purists probably wouldn't start with a Devialet anyway, they'd want something that glows and warms the room in winter.

Well, the question is if we do not cheat ourselves that it still has something to do with analog playback (even in case of '70 LPs). With the same result you could rip your best vinyl tracks to digital files and play them from NAS. 

[Les Anderson]

I don't think we cheat ourselves for the following reasons.

1. The A/D process done right, even at 16 bits, never mind 24 bits provides ample headroom to support the dynamic range of what vinyl is capable of. In my experience, and many others as well- modern A/D converters that are well implemented are transparent.

2. The Devialet does RIAA equalization in the digital domain, where it can be implemented +/- 0 DB flat. In the analog domain, there is no such thing. There will always be deviation from the true spec.

3. The digital domain allows for SAM and RAM, two features that are not realistic in the analog domain. Both of these have enormous potential for huge audible gains, much more so than a loss theoretical loss from converting from analog to digital.

You cannot take a single facet of the Expert platform, in this case how analog/phono is handled and criticize it on its own. You need to understand and appreciate what digital as a whole is bringing to the entire platform and then ask yourself if avoiding that extra A/D conversion is enough to warrant doing away with all of the cumulative gains that digitizing the analog signal brings to the table.

We enjoy a noiseless and lossless volume control, powerful DSP, microprocessor controlled everything and the most elegant design and footprint in the history of HiFi.

The phono sounds damn good too!

[ozthepoz]

Must admit, I wondered whether an internal devialet phono stage was the best way to listen to my vinyl. However, my records sound great, and that's the only thing I'm concerned about.

That said, if money was no object, I might look at an external phono stage such as the Moon 810 LP.

[f1eng]

IME a completely audibly transparent ADC/DAC combination has been available for years.
There are enthusiasts who will never accept that, but they have clearly not listened to any.

I have, as an amateur, been making music recordings for 50 years, and as a professional instigated and used data recordings for about 35 years of my career. Music is strictly air pressure fluctuation data so the strengths and weaknesses of all recording techniques apply to all I have been doing.
There are a lot of things I learned from all this experience but that which is valid in the case of the Devialets is that a properly engineered ADC/DAC is audibly transparent. No analogue circuit is, and a precis of what Les Anderson outlines above the Devialet is probably the least coloured amplifier yet produced, whether using the analogue or digital inputs.
FWIW, all tape recorders I used changed the sound audibly. All digital recorders I have used make the tinyest or no change to the sound. For at least 10 years the monitoring the output of the recorder shows it to be audibly identical to the microphone feed.

Before I bought my D-Premier 5 + years ago I had an extensive home demo. I tried several analogue sources, including my Goldmund PH2 phono stage, the most accurate analogue stage I know of, as well as the phono input. In summary, the characteristic colour of all these sources came through the D-Premier unsullied. I still have but don't use the Goldmund phono stage.

There are, in any case, so many compromises necessary for LP manufacture it would be impossible to make an LP sound the same as the microphone feed for most music anyway, even if the master recording did.

[MIKE]

I don't think we cheat ourselves for the following reasons.

1. The A/D process done right, even at 16 bits, never mind 24 bits provides ample headroom to support the dynamic range of what vinyl is capable of. In my experience, and many others as well- modern A/D converters that are well implemented are transparent.

2. The Devialet does RIAA equalization in the digital domain, where it can be implemented +/- 0 DB flat. In the analog domain, there is no such thing. There will always be deviation from the true spec.

3. The digital domain allows for SAM and RAM, two features that are not realistic in the analog domain. Both of these have enormous potential for huge audible gains, much more so than a loss theoretical loss from converting from analog to digital.

You cannot take a single facet of the Expert platform, in this case how analog/phono is handled and criticize it on its own. You need to understand and appreciate what digital as a whole is bringing to the entire platform and then ask yourself if avoiding that extra A/D conversion is enough to warrant doing away with all of the  cumulative gains that digitizing the analog signal brings to the table.

We enjoy a noiseless and lossless volume control, powerful DSP, microprocessor controlled everything and the most elegant design and footprint in the history of HiFi.

The phono sounds damn good too!

Of course, I take all those points into consideration. Moreover, I do not say that nowadays digital domain is not able to transmit the entire analog sound spectrum - I think yes, it is (however some of vinyl lovers will not agree with me).

My doubt is whether it makes sense to play the music this way - buy/collect vinyls?... unless you already have them.
So far, you've had a chance to be in touch with "live", analog music and equipment, that sometimes souned better because ...  was "analog". Now, its difficult to show the "added values" (as long as you play through Devi) . At the end of the day, analog tracks sound as good as digital A-D-A converter lets them.

[f1eng]

I don't think we cheat ourselves for the following reasons.

1. The A/D process done right, even at 16 bits, never mind 24 bits provides ample headroom to support the dynamic range of what vinyl is capable of. In my experience, and many others as well- modern A/D converters that are well implemented are transparent.

2. The Devialet does RIAA equalization in the digital domain, where it can be implemented +/- 0 DB flat. In the analog domain, there is no such thing. There will always be deviation from the true spec.

3. The digital domain allows for SAM and RAM, two features that are not realistic in the analog domain. Both of these have enormous potential for huge audible gains, much more so than a loss theoretical loss from converting from analog to digital.

You cannot take a single facet of the Expert platform, in this case how analog/phono is handled and criticize it on its own. You need to understand and appreciate what digital as a whole is bringing to the entire platform and then ask yourself if avoiding that extra A/D conversion is enough to warrant doing away with all of the  cumulative gains that digitizing the analog signal brings to the table.

We enjoy a noiseless and lossless volume control, powerful DSP, microprocessor controlled everything and the most elegant design and footprint in the history of HiFi.

The phono sounds damn good too!

Of course, I take all those points into consideration. Moreover, I do not say that nowadays digital domain is not able to transmit the entire analog sound spectrum - I think yes, it is (however some of vinyl lovers will not agree with me).

My doubt is whether it makes sense to play the music this way - buy/collect vinyls?... unless you already have them.
So far, you've had a chance to be in touch with "live", analog music and equipment, that sometimes souned better because ...  was "analog". Now, its difficult to show the "added values" (as long as you play through Devi) . At the end of the day, analog tracks sound as good as digital A-D-A converter lets them.

I can promise you that there is noting "better" about any analogue method available if accuracy is the goal.
There is a notable loss of accuracy going from any master, be it reel-to-reel tape or digital, to a manufacturable, playable LP. There is nothing new in this, it was perfectly well known and excepted when I worked in that industry in the 1970s.
I love my LPs, and have hundreds since I have been buying them for 50 years. It just so happens that, with the exception of speed stability and mistracking, all the colourations added in the process of manufacturing and playing LPs are euphonic to somebody, and they are so many and varied that anybody can tune them to their taste.
Well engineered digital is transparent, so a listener is stuck with the sound the recording engineer mixed, not everybody's taste.

In my later career designing Formula 1 racing cars there was no analogue recording method for on board data accurate enough to be useful, even though in both dynamic range and high frequencies this data was less exigent than music. In fact that side of things was either impossible or a huge amount of work for little data before digital methods came along.
The earliest digital recorders were pretty good. The main thing that has changed since the early 80s has been kit getting cheaper and cheaper.
It is worth reading this old (1984) report from the Boston Audio society IMHO:

http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/bas_sp...sting2.htm

It is a shame so few enthusiasts have done any recording themselves since if one has, and knows the difference between microphone feed and output of the recorder, any idea that analogue is transparent is immediately debunked.
It is amusing to note that one of the most popular filters used in mixing by members of the user group of the digital recorder I use is a plug-in which emulates the colouration of a reel-to-reel tape recorder...

I am completely sure personally that what I enjoy about my LPs is the fortunate combination of euphonic colourations inherent in them, and that using a digital system for RIAA correction can't lose anything at all. I have 4 record players, love them all and they all sound different.

[Les Anderson]

I don't think we cheat ourselves for the following reasons.

1. The A/D process done right, even at 16 bits, never mind 24 bits provides ample headroom to support the dynamic range of what vinyl is capable of. In my experience, and many others as well- modern A/D converters that are well implemented are transparent.

2. The Devialet does RIAA equalization in the digital domain, where it can be implemented +/- 0 DB flat. In the analog domain, there is no such thing. There will always be deviation from the true spec.

3. The digital domain allows for SAM and RAM, two features that are not realistic in the analog domain. Both of these have enormous potential for huge audible gains, much more so than a loss theoretical loss from converting from analog to digital.

You cannot take a single facet of the Expert platform, in this case how analog/phono is handled and criticize it on its own. You need to understand and appreciate what digital as a whole is bringing to the entire platform and then ask yourself if avoiding that extra A/D conversion is enough to warrant doing away with all of the  cumulative gains that digitizing the analog signal brings to the table.

We enjoy a noiseless and lossless volume control, powerful DSP, microprocessor controlled everything and the most elegant design and footprint in the history of HiFi.

The phono sounds damn good too!

Of course, I take all those points into consideration. Moreover, I do not say that nowadays digital domain is not able to transmit the entire analog sound spectrum - I think yes, it is (however some of vinyl lovers will not agree with me).

My doubt is whether it makes sense to play the music this way - buy/collect vinyls?... unless you already have them.
So far, you've had a chance to be in touch with "live", analog music and equipment, that sometimes souned better because ...  was "analog". Now, its difficult to show the "added values" (as long as you play through Devi) . At the end of the day, analog tracks sound as good as digital A-D-A converter lets them.

In regards to does it make sense to buy and collect vinyl. If your end goal is absolutely accuracy than the answer is likely no. For me, I get enjoyment from the exercise of putting the record on the platter and dropping the needle. I love looking at the large album art and inserts. I tend to listen to full albums versus jumping around to a bunch of single tracks which is fun and often times enlightening. Also, when I travel I make it a point to take a look around for record shops and try to pop in if I have time. There are super cool little gems all over the place. 

I think vinyl can sound great, but I don''t try to kid myself that it is an inherently superior format. 

This all goes back to what you are trying to get out of the hobby.

[DelaneyB]

My wife has wanted a TT for ages. She still has a lot of vinyl that she never got rid of when we went fully CD (then rips) 12 years ago.
So today I picked up a new Rega RP3....
I must say it sounds superb!