Dialog vs. Airport

[hydr]

@angenet - the Dialog is literally five feet from the Phantom with the optical input. The other one is ~20 feet away, line-of-sight. And mine is the only network physically located in the building. Believe me, there's nothing pathological about my environment. If these devices are meant to operate in an urban setting at all, mine is a relatively unchallenging one.

@streamy - that's an interesting device. But I'd like to keep this thread focused on the topic of how the Phantom / Dialog Wifi functionality works (or doesn't). Specifically, whether Devialet's own people are giving me advice that doesn't apply to my configuration.

@Jamington2004 - Your comment directly addresses the point I'm trying to clarify: "the dialog network relies on a very steady uninterrupted network feeding it" The dedicated networks that the Dialog itself sets up are, in fact, fenced-off networks with no other traffic except for Dialog->Phantom communication. And since I'm using the optical input, not using Spark, and not streaming audio to the Dialog, there is no Devialet-specific traffic on my home network. The two are completely separate. In other words, my assertion is that the Phantoms never connect to any Wifi except the dedicated Dialog-initiated networks.

Adding an Airport, if the above theory is correct, should have no effect, because there will be no Devialet-specific traffic on the Airport's network. It replaces my home network in this equation, it doesn't replace the Dialog-initiated networks. Again, this should be testable by turning off *all* networking gear except the Dialog - the system will continue to function.

Hypothetically, an Airport might make the situation worse, as I'd be using more of the available channels for non-Phantom traffic and "squeezing" the Dialog-initiated network into the remaining space. Anyway, the Airport has arrived from Devialet, so I can test my assertion this weekend.

Wow, you and me are in the exact same situation. I have been e-mailing back and forth with devialet support for almost a year now about this.
Wiring the Phantoms is not an option as they are all wall mounted. I have 7 phantoms, and I have constant drop outs, often missing one of the stereo speakers, general dropouts, PLC/5GHz wifi back and forth etc. I have also concluded that the Phantoms use their internal wifi, as I don´t see any of my Phantoms on my Orbi router when they are shown as 5GHz. I suspect my own WIFI would easily be able to give them all the bandwidth and stability they needed to play smooth. But as you say, there is no option. Been asking Devialet support for user options with regards to this without success.

Knowing that I have 7 Phantoms in 4 different rooms wall-mounted with Gecko, Devialet Support actually suggest that I move all my Phantoms and Dialog to the same powerbar to solve my issue.... It´s unbelievable.

[meeotch]

If it weren't so enraging, it would be funny. Every time I've submitted a report from the Spark interface (dozens, over the course of a year), I get an email back saying, "Your submitted log shows there is a problem with PLC connection. Please try putting the Phantoms on the same powerbar."

After a year of explaining to them that a wired connection is not a long-term solution for me, and also not the product that was pitched to me by their sales people, customer support actually said, "Wifi isn't meant to be used as a primary connection - it's only a fallback for if PLC fails momentarily". See the Optical Dropouts thread for more fun stories: https://devialetchat.com/showthread.php?tid=3695&page=5

The only suggestion I have is to try running your audio into one of the Phantom's optical inputs. The fact that the Dialog can't reliably do optical input and Wifi simultaneously is something they acknowledged to me a year ago, and the promised fix has never materialized. Running optical direct to a Phantom is the only thing that's improved (but not solved) the situation for me.

I'm not giving up, though. All of us who are having bad experiences with their products & customer support should continue sharing information. Perhaps as a group we can steer them into providing some sort of a solution.

[Eggman]

I had lousy connectivity and WiFi issues from day 1. Tried an Airport, did not help. I ditched my router for an Eero mesh network and have not had a problem since. My Dialog is connected via Ethernet cable to the main Eero hub, and the rest is wireless, phantoms on different floors, all working fine.


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[meeotch]

@Eggman - that's interesting. I'm not too familiar with mesh networking, but I assume it must either be using a different part of the spectrum, or otherwise have better interference qualities with "standard" 5GHz wifi. (This assumption based on the fact that the Phantoms aren't actually connected to your mesh, as you can likely confirm by logging in to the mesh and seeing what's connected - or by shutting it down altogether.)

As an update to the original topic: the Airport Express provided no benefit at all, just as I suspected based on the info above. With optical input to the Dialog, it still exhibited audio dropouts several times an hour.

My next test is to shut down all the networking equipment in the entire building, and test for dropouts.

[Eggman]

@Eggman - that's interesting. I'm not too familiar with mesh networking, but I assume it must either be using a different part of the spectrum, or otherwise have better interference qualities with "standard" 5GHz wifi. (This assumption based on the fact that the Phantoms aren't actually connected to your mesh, as you can likely confirm by logging in to the mesh and seeing what's connected - or by shutting it down altogether.)

As an update to the original topic: the Airport Express provided no benefit at all, just as I suspected based on the info above. With optical input to the Dialog, it still exhibited audio dropouts several times an hour.

My next test is to shut down all the networking equipment in the entire building, and test for dropouts.

I claim no understanding of mesh networks either! I’m simply reporting that my issues were all related to the instability of my WiFi network, and the numerous dead zones in my two story house. The Airport is a lousy solution because it is an old, weak router, and will not solve the dead zone issues. I had tried a Netgear extender, and that was utter garbage, because it would get lost whenever my equally garbage cable modem router combo decided to switch frequencies. I don’t know how the Eero works. It simply blankets the house. There are no dead zones. If you start with the premise that your Devialet hardware is not defective, then the obvious culprit is your house’s WiFi environment.


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[meeotch]

Are you using the streaming features of Dialog / Spark? I.e., sending audio via any route *other* than a wired optical input? That could also explain why your solution worked for you, since that traffic flows through your "home" network.

Unfortunately (or fortunately?) my location is a single large room with no obstructions. As mentioned further up the thread, the Phantoms/Dialog are within a few feet of each other. And last night, I tested the system with all the networking gear in the building turned off. The system continued to function (since the Phantoms don't use "home" wifi), but the audio dropouts persisted.

I've run a wifi sniffer at my location on many occasions, so I know what the signal strength of my home wifi network is relative to the Dialog networks and relative to networks in neighboring buildings. Believe me, I *wish* that the problem was wifi dead spots, or that there was something I could do to bolster or replace the Dialog wifi network. In fact, that was the question that originally started this thread: me hoping I'd somehow misunderstood which wifi net the Phantoms were actually on. Sadly, it's just not the case.

[Eggman]

I'm not using a wired optical input at all. The only wired connection is the ethernet from Eero to Dialog. All of my music is streamed via Spark and Tidal, and connected to the internet via my home WiFi network.

But the fact that your system functioned with your network turned off seems to point to the culprit. If my home network is off for any reason, Spark will immediately stop and give an error warning. So somehow your Dialog is hooking up to the internet via something that is not your dedicated home network, or it wouldn't work at all, no?

Again, I'm no expert, I'm just guessing.

[meeotch]

That explains the difference between our results. Your setup looks like this:

Spark ----[home wifi]----> Dialog ----[Dialog wifi]----> Phantoms

So clearly, replacing [home wifi] with a mesh network has an effect. Mine looks like this:

Source----[optical]----> Dialog ----[Dialog wifi]----> Phantoms

Note that my home wifi network doesn't figure in to the equation at all. The Dialog is only using it for firmware updates and to communicate with Spark, which I never use unless I have to. Thus, turning my home network off completely or replacing it with an Airport Express has no effect.

If I could get the damn thing to simply maintain a given state without randomly un-selecting my one audio source or spontaneously rebooting itself, I would unplug it from my network entirely, and ditch Spark altogether. The only reason I ever open Spark is to re-setup the Dialog when it's crapped its pants again.

[hydr]

That explains the difference between our results.  Your setup looks like this:

        Spark ----[home wifi]----> Dialog ----[Dialog wifi]----> Phantoms

So clearly, replacing [home wifi] with a mesh network has an effect.  Mine looks like this:

        Source----[optical]----> Dialog ----[Dialog wifi]----> Phantoms

Note that my home wifi network doesn't figure in to the equation at all.  The Dialog is only using it for firmware updates and to communicate with Spark, which I never use unless I have to.  Thus, turning my home network off completely or replacing it with an Airport Express has no effect.  

If I could get the damn thing to simply maintain a given state without randomly un-selecting my one audio source or spontaneously rebooting itself, I would unplug it from my network entirely, and ditch Spark altogether.  The only reason I ever open Spark is to re-setup the Dialog when it's crapped its pants again.

 @meeotch - any news on your setup or support with Devialet? I´m stuck in a quagmire.. I asked about Spark 2.0, and was told that it would probably allow you to select Dialog Wifi or PLC as a preferred method, but no to using external wifi. :-( 

I don´t think I can ever solve my issues without adding ugly ethernet cables all over the apartment, and with ceiling to floor windows that should look real good. /s

[meeotch]

Man, I don't envy you having to run around your place resetting & then palming seven Phantoms every time the Dialog shits the bed and needs to be reconfigured.

The latest rep I've talked to (a manager, supposedly) maintains that Wifi should work without dropouts. I re-confirmed that with one of their front line pre-sales people, and "wireless" is still mentioned several times in their product literature. They now say they will replace all the parts of the system (two Phantoms + Dialog). That's at least a step forward from where we've been stuck for a year - though I honestly think the problem is a design flaw.

My advice: 1) try the Phantom optical input, if that's an option for you. 2) ask to have your case escalated to someone higher up the food chain. 3) don't let them convince you that it's your fault for thinking Wifi should work, if that's how the product was originally presented to you by their sales people. 4) keep the rest of us posted.

If I end up having to drill a bunch of holes in my walls and run wiring to get the things to work, I not going to give up without getting some sort of compensation for the missing functionality.