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From Devialet Tech Support: How Phantom, Dialog & Wifi Router communicate
#21
(12-Dec-2015, 10:17)MountainGuy Wrote: Recently, Devialet has been very responsive to my concerns, and is turning my experience around. I am grateful.  Below is information that some of you may find useful. I certainly did. 

Please note that this is not official Devialet statement though it is provided to me by Devialet's lead in global support.  Neither is it intended to be a complete treatise so please do not critique it as being incomplete.  They were simply responding to my specific quesitons. 

I've edited the paragraphs very slightly for readability and trust that I have not changed any meaning. Hope it helps some of you. 

(Based o the below, I will be doing some additional creative connections in hopes of greatly improving the wireless streaming and also allow all the computer audio to port through the Phantoms at full resolution.  I will report back.) 


************************* 

There are 3 different ways Phantoms can communicate with Dialog:
1.       Via wireless
2.       Via electrical (PLC)
3.       Via ethernet
Every time the Phantoms are on and playing, DIalog will first look at the strongest signal between Wifi, PLC or Ethernet, and select the stable one. When Dialog picked up the funnel, it starts then to communicate through this channel to the rest of the equipment, the setup won’t change his channel till you clean your play queue in Spark and stop playing tracks to your Phantom. During the listening session only one funnel will  be use by the whole equipment. The software part of Phantom is evolving on a very regular basis, so it might change in future to do a kind of workload balancing between (or even already change if I did not completely update my knowledge on Phantom communication).

To offer the best experience ever and reinforcing the communication between Dialog and Phantoms, we have recommendations (because most of the time the wifi signal from your internet router is highly stressed by all your home devices, few services like tv or phone, therefore this signal is not able to carry constantly an important signal like music)
1.       As much as possible we suggest ethernet as the best option to stream between Phantom in a Dual setup.
2.       If ethernet is not possible, PLC (powerline communication) is the second best option but does not always work on certain customer home as the electrical grid is separate from a room to another.
3.       If the two above option are not possible, we suggest wifi BUT we recommend to get a separate and dedicated signal for your Phantom setup (we suggest Airport express, but all router can do the job).
 
Dialog is the source of the wireless connection for the Phantom.  It creates the communication signal between all your system, so the closer your Dialog is from your Dual Phantom better it is (and that’s also why if you have more than 1 Phantom you need a Dialog in the system)  If we ask our customer to get their Dialog connected to their internet router, this is because Dialog needs sometime to ping our update server, check on if there is an update available but more importantly to add the streaming platform available (Tidal, Deezer & Qobuz at the moment).

 For the streaming piece (this is where your wifi signal router needs to be strong and we prefer our customer to get a dedicated wireless signal for avoiding some drop while playing because of internet router overload):
-          While playing Local music: Your Phone/Tablet/ needs to transmit a large flow of data to your router, which will pass it to your dialog and finally from the Dialog to the Phantom.
-          while streaming from platform music: your router will capture data from the web first, then will communicate it to Dialog, additionally your device in charge of piloting your Phantom system (Phone/Tablet/PC) need also an important wifi signal to pass instructions to the rest of the system.  

I would like to know more on how Phantoms use Wifi? 

When they go up 5GHz Wifi, my Netgear router which is monitoring all devices does not notice any new devices? How is that possible? Or does Dialog act as a wifi router itself? My wifi is brilliant throughout the house, but my Phantoms Wifi performance is poor. If Phantom actually used my wifi, I would see it as an device connected to my network which I do not.
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#22
(19-Jan-2018, 14:56)hydr Wrote:
(12-Dec-2015, 10:17)MountainGuy Wrote: Recently, Devialet has been very responsive to my concerns, and is turning my experience around. I am grateful.  Below is information that some of you may find useful. I certainly did. 

Please note that this is not official Devialet statement though it is provided to me by Devialet's lead in global support.  Neither is it intended to be a complete treatise so please do not critique it as being incomplete.  They were simply responding to my specific quesitons. 

I've edited the paragraphs very slightly for readability and trust that I have not changed any meaning. Hope it helps some of you. 

(Based o the below, I will be doing some additional creative connections in hopes of greatly improving the wireless streaming and also allow all the computer audio to port through the Phantoms at full resolution.  I will report back.) 


************************* 

There are 3 different ways Phantoms can communicate with Dialog:
1.       Via wireless
2.       Via electrical (PLC)
3.       Via ethernet
Every time the Phantoms are on and playing, DIalog will first look at the strongest signal between Wifi, PLC or Ethernet, and select the stable one. When Dialog picked up the funnel, it starts then to communicate through this channel to the rest of the equipment, the setup won’t change his channel till you clean your play queue in Spark and stop playing tracks to your Phantom. During the listening session only one funnel will  be use by the whole equipment. The software part of Phantom is evolving on a very regular basis, so it might change in future to do a kind of workload balancing between (or even already change if I did not completely update my knowledge on Phantom communication).

To offer the best experience ever and reinforcing the communication between Dialog and Phantoms, we have recommendations (because most of the time the wifi signal from your internet router is highly stressed by all your home devices, few services like tv or phone, therefore this signal is not able to carry constantly an important signal like music)
1.       As much as possible we suggest ethernet as the best option to stream between Phantom in a Dual setup.
2.       If ethernet is not possible, PLC (powerline communication) is the second best option but does not always work on certain customer home as the electrical grid is separate from a room to another.
3.       If the two above option are not possible, we suggest wifi BUT we recommend to get a separate and dedicated signal for your Phantom setup (we suggest Airport express, but all router can do the job).
 
Dialog is the source of the wireless connection for the Phantom.  It creates the communication signal between all your system, so the closer your Dialog is from your Dual Phantom better it is (and that’s also why if you have more than 1 Phantom you need a Dialog in the system)  If we ask our customer to get their Dialog connected to their internet router, this is because Dialog needs sometime to ping our update server, check on if there is an update available but more importantly to add the streaming platform available (Tidal, Deezer & Qobuz at the moment).

 For the streaming piece (this is where your wifi signal router needs to be strong and we prefer our customer to get a dedicated wireless signal for avoiding some drop while playing because of internet router overload):
-          While playing Local music: Your Phone/Tablet/ needs to transmit a large flow of data to your router, which will pass it to your dialog and finally from the Dialog to the Phantom.
-          while streaming from platform music: your router will capture data from the web first, then will communicate it to Dialog, additionally your device in charge of piloting your Phantom system (Phone/Tablet/PC) need also an important wifi signal to pass instructions to the rest of the system.  

I would like to know more on how Phantoms use Wifi? 

When they go up 5GHz Wifi, my Netgear router which is monitoring all devices does not notice any new devices? How is that possible? Or does Dialog act as a wifi router itself? My wifi is brilliant throughout the house, but my Phantoms Wifi performance is poor. If Phantom actually used my wifi, I would see it as an device connected to my network which I do not.

The Dialog creates two WiFi networks, one 2.4 GHz and one 5 GHz, so yes it's a Wi-Fi router, with pretty poor performance.
Living room: Kii Three/BXT with Control.
Den: Tannoy Precision 8 iDP with TS112 iDP subwoofer.
In the cupboard, waiting for a sibling: 1st gen. Phantom Silver running DOS1
My Phantom Voyage
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#23
(19-Jan-2018, 16:04)ragwo Wrote:
(19-Jan-2018, 14:56)hydr Wrote:
(12-Dec-2015, 10:17)MountainGuy Wrote: Recently, Devialet has been very responsive to my concerns, and is turning my experience around. I am grateful.  Below is information that some of you may find useful. I certainly did. 

Please note that this is not official Devialet statement though it is provided to me by Devialet's lead in global support.  Neither is it intended to be a complete treatise so please do not critique it as being incomplete.  They were simply responding to my specific quesitons. 

I've edited the paragraphs very slightly for readability and trust that I have not changed any meaning. Hope it helps some of you. 

(Based o the below, I will be doing some additional creative connections in hopes of greatly improving the wireless streaming and also allow all the computer audio to port through the Phantoms at full resolution.  I will report back.) 


************************* 

There are 3 different ways Phantoms can communicate with Dialog:
1.       Via wireless
2.       Via electrical (PLC)
3.       Via ethernet
Every time the Phantoms are on and playing, DIalog will first look at the strongest signal between Wifi, PLC or Ethernet, and select the stable one. When Dialog picked up the funnel, it starts then to communicate through this channel to the rest of the equipment, the setup won’t change his channel till you clean your play queue in Spark and stop playing tracks to your Phantom. During the listening session only one funnel will  be use by the whole equipment. The software part of Phantom is evolving on a very regular basis, so it might change in future to do a kind of workload balancing between (or even already change if I did not completely update my knowledge on Phantom communication).

To offer the best experience ever and reinforcing the communication between Dialog and Phantoms, we have recommendations (because most of the time the wifi signal from your internet router is highly stressed by all your home devices, few services like tv or phone, therefore this signal is not able to carry constantly an important signal like music)
1.       As much as possible we suggest ethernet as the best option to stream between Phantom in a Dual setup.
2.       If ethernet is not possible, PLC (powerline communication) is the second best option but does not always work on certain customer home as the electrical grid is separate from a room to another.
3.       If the two above option are not possible, we suggest wifi BUT we recommend to get a separate and dedicated signal for your Phantom setup (we suggest Airport express, but all router can do the job).
 
Dialog is the source of the wireless connection for the Phantom.  It creates the communication signal between all your system, so the closer your Dialog is from your Dual Phantom better it is (and that’s also why if you have more than 1 Phantom you need a Dialog in the system)  If we ask our customer to get their Dialog connected to their internet router, this is because Dialog needs sometime to ping our update server, check on if there is an update available but more importantly to add the streaming platform available (Tidal, Deezer & Qobuz at the moment).

 For the streaming piece (this is where your wifi signal router needs to be strong and we prefer our customer to get a dedicated wireless signal for avoiding some drop while playing because of internet router overload):
-          While playing Local music: Your Phone/Tablet/ needs to transmit a large flow of data to your router, which will pass it to your dialog and finally from the Dialog to the Phantom.
-          while streaming from platform music: your router will capture data from the web first, then will communicate it to Dialog, additionally your device in charge of piloting your Phantom system (Phone/Tablet/PC) need also an important wifi signal to pass instructions to the rest of the system.  

I would like to know more on how Phantoms use Wifi? 

When they go up 5GHz Wifi, my Netgear router which is monitoring all devices does not notice any new devices? How is that possible? Or does Dialog act as a wifi router itself? My wifi is brilliant throughout the house, but my Phantoms Wifi performance is poor. If Phantom actually used my wifi, I would see it as an device connected to my network which I do not.

The Dialog creates two WiFi networks, one 2.4 GHz and one 5 GHz, so yes it's a Wi-Fi router, with pretty poor performance.

Thank you! I am amazed Devialet has insisted that my Phantoms use my internal Wifi network and not the Dialogs own.
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#24
I had really spotty Phantom performance with my WiFi setup -- constant dropouts,  factory reset every few weeks, angry emails to Devialet customer support, replaced 2 routers, etc. 

On Devialet's recommendation, I tried a dedicated Airport Express. Didn't help. (the fact that Apple no longer makes them indicates this is not a great long-term solution) 

I bought a netgear extender, and that worked for a day or so then simply created another problem on top of a problematic network. 

And then I got an Eero wireless system and plugged the dialog into the main hub. Since I installed it, the performance has been flawless. WiFi has also been flawless. So perhaps the Phantom's system problems had simply been my stupid cable router(s) the whole time.

So if you're having connectivity trouble and you've exhausted the possibilities, give the Eero system a try (I'm not a rep, I haven't been paid, I'm simply grateful to have working WiFi.).

Viva wireless!!
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#25
So, to be clear, I’m sure you must need the cable modem but then simply connect by WAN from it to your Eero to do the WiFi and Routing? I’m curious... are you able to turn off the WiFi function in the cable modem/router? And did you? I would think that might be important/necessary? Also, how many Eero extenders are you using? If any? Seems like the base unit provides pretty good coverage alone. I have a 2300 sq foot single level urban condo and with it centrally located it seems that should be enough...?
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#26
I have a DIALOG plus 2 Gold Phantoms, and I have been having a lot of problems with TIDAL freezing after 1-2 songs.

Oddly enough, the only stable set up is when the Phantoms are NOT on Ethernet and using only the PLC, which makes little sense.

Is anyone else having this problem were PLC is more stable versus Ethernet? 

I have placed the Dialog and the two Phantoms on the same Router, but it's in Access Point (AP) mode. Should the router be in Bridge mode?
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#27
(15-Jun-2018, 23:22)rkelkar Wrote: I have a DIALOG plus 2 Gold Phantoms, and I have been having a lot of problems with TIDAL freezing after 1-2 songs.

Oddly enough, the only stable set up is when the Phantoms are NOT on Ethernet and using only the PLC, which makes little sense.

Is anyone else having this problem were PLC is more stable versus Ethernet? 

I have placed the Dialog and the two Phantoms on the same Router, but it's in Access Point (AP) mode. Should the router be in Bridge mode?

What is your router make and model? Since giving up on the situation, I subsequently found out about the Intel chip problem. Look for a router with Broadcom chip?
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#28
Until recently I didn't know about the in built PLC and when the wireless wasn't reliable I opted to use TP-Link PLN devices, plugged into the same sockets as the Phantoms had been. Works brilliantly.

I have other issues (see blow up thread) which some are suggesting is down to plugging into the passthrough power sockets on the PLNs but I feel dubious about that.
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