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Hifi+ 140 Pro review
#31
(25-Mar-2019, 09:24)RebelMan Wrote:
(18-Mar-2019, 13:02)Antoine Wrote:
(17-Mar-2019, 22:49)Greg Wrote: The more circuits in the signal path, the woolyer to sound will be. Basic networking is absolutely fine. Have a try and cut out all the other units you have.

This sentence above triggered me. Smile While this used to be true in the past with analog circuits it no longer is true in the digital domain. Actually we’re seeing the opposite. When high quality devices are used (with high quality power supplies and clocks) these can actually improve signal integrity/fidelity through re-generating/re-clocking and thus by lowering jitter/phase noise and isolation of upstream components.

Of course we have to be careful not to make things worse but I’d just like to point out that a blanket statement like yours is not something I agree with.

We’re used to seeing devices like re-clockers for S/PDIF (or AES/EBU) but these are now joined by devices that work for USB and ethernet as well.

Before you ask; the exact reasons why this works (bits are bits right) are not yet fully understood in all cases.

Greg is spot on.  Most engineering circles will tell you sound quality improves when simpler circuits (systems) are employed.  When high quality devices, like the Devialet, are manufactured the engineers have already taken into account what issues they must contend with to make their product perform in the field as much as it does in the lab.  Conditioners, filters, regenerators, re-clockers and the like are NOT necessary nor will they improve sound quality.  There is very little objective evidence to dispute this but a mountain of it that supports it.  However, if it makes YOU feel better about using such ancillary devices then by all means.

For the record bits are not bits they are signals and they are well understood but Mother Nature likes to spoil what we know.

Even while being an EE (who’s working in IT though) I don’t adhere to the bits are bits dogma. I’m also more than tired of this discussion so let’s agree to (firmly) disagree shall we? Smile
PS Audio P3, Shunyata ΞTRON Alpha Digital and HC/Furutech power cables, Paul Hynes SR7EHD-MR4, DIY Roon Server & Roon Endpoint running AudioLinux Headless, Phasure Lush^2 USB cable, Audioquest Diamond RJ/E ethernet, Uptone Audio etherREGEN, Mutec MC-3+ USB, Shunyata ΞTRON Anaconda Digital XLR AES/EBU, Devialet Expert 250 Pro CI, Nordost Tyr Reference LS cables, Von Schweikert VR-5 SE Anniversary Edition, Anti-Mode Dual Core 2.0, JL Audio Fathom F112. More detail here.

The Netherlands
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#32
(25-Mar-2019, 09:54)Antoine Wrote:
(25-Mar-2019, 09:24)RebelMan Wrote:
(18-Mar-2019, 13:02)Antoine Wrote: This sentence above triggered me. Smile While this used to be true in the past with analog circuits it no longer is true in the digital domain. Actually we’re seeing the opposite. When high quality devices are used (with high quality power supplies and clocks) these can actually improve signal integrity/fidelity through re-generating/re-clocking and thus by lowering jitter/phase noise and isolation of upstream components.

Of course we have to be careful not to make things worse but I’d just like to point out that a blanket statement like yours is not something I agree with.

We’re used to seeing devices like re-clockers for S/PDIF (or AES/EBU) but these are now joined by devices that work for USB and ethernet as well.

Before you ask; the exact reasons why this works (bits are bits right) are not yet fully understood in all cases.

Greg is spot on.  Most engineering circles will tell you sound quality improves when simpler circuits (systems) are employed.  When high quality devices, like the Devialet, are manufactured the engineers have already taken into account what issues they must contend with to make their product perform in the field as much as it does in the lab.  Conditioners, filters, regenerators, re-clockers and the like are NOT necessary nor will they improve sound quality.  There is very little objective evidence to dispute this but a mountain of it that supports it.  However, if it makes YOU feel better about using such ancillary devices then by all means.

For the record bits are not bits they are signals and they are well understood but Mother Nature likes to spoil what we know.

Even while being an EE (who’s working in IT though) I don’t adhere to the bits are bits dogma. I’m also more than tired of this discussion so let’s agree to (firmly) disagree shall we? Smile

I agree with you !!
Aavik U-280 / Audio Physic Cardeas / Melco N1ZS + D100 / Melco Switch S100 / KECES P8 Dual / Transparent Audio PowerWave X / Cable: Audioquest, Shunyata, Transparent, Ansuz Digitalz A2 Ethernet, USB
Remote: iPad-Pro
Roon Nucleus+(B), Lifetime / Qobuz Studio Sublime                                                                                                          
Germany / Bavaria
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#33
(25-Mar-2019, 09:54)Antoine Wrote:
(25-Mar-2019, 09:24)RebelMan Wrote:
(18-Mar-2019, 13:02)Antoine Wrote: This sentence above triggered me. Smile While this used to be true in the past with analog circuits it no longer is true in the digital domain. Actually we’re seeing the opposite. When high quality devices are used (with high quality power supplies and clocks) these can actually improve signal integrity/fidelity through re-generating/re-clocking and thus by lowering jitter/phase noise and isolation of upstream components.

Of course we have to be careful not to make things worse but I’d just like to point out that a blanket statement like yours is not something I agree with.

We’re used to seeing devices like re-clockers for S/PDIF (or AES/EBU) but these are now joined by devices that work for USB and ethernet as well.

Before you ask; the exact reasons why this works (bits are bits right) are not yet fully understood in all cases.

Greg is spot on.  Most engineering circles will tell you sound quality improves when simpler circuits (systems) are employed.  When high quality devices, like the Devialet, are manufactured the engineers have already taken into account what issues they must contend with to make their product perform in the field as much as it does in the lab.  Conditioners, filters, regenerators, re-clockers and the like are NOT necessary nor will they improve sound quality.  There is very little objective evidence to dispute this but a mountain of it that supports it.  However, if it makes YOU feel better about using such ancillary devices then by all means.

For the record bits are not bits they are signals and they are well understood but Mother Nature likes to spoil what we know.

Even while being an EE (who’s working in IT though) I don’t adhere to the bits are bits dogma. I’m also more than tired of this discussion so let’s agree to (firmly) disagree shall we? Smile

That's your call but my remarks remain steadfast and proven.  Though, I am a little disappointed that a fellow engineer may be influenced more by alchemy than science.   Wink
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."
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#34
(21-Mar-2019, 19:43)DAVEDWACK Wrote: Hi,

As a matter of interest....which JBls?

Having heard a pair of 4430 clones over the weekend at the Wigwam show I'm smitten!

Cheers...Dave
Hi Dave,

They are late 90's Danish built JBL L100's.  (not to be confused with the classic American built L100's)  See links below.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...5-Jbl-L100

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...This-Model

The photographs per the links are not my actual JBL's, but they are pictures of an identical model.  I first bought a Devialet as the amp of choice to drive the Blades, it would be hilarious if I one day try the JBL's with the 100Pro and find I prefer them to the Blades. Shy  

But yes, @Waiski 's JBLs are somewhat bigger than mine....

I too like the 4430's.  I can imagine that if I one day make it to retirement, I wouldn't mind moving somewhere where big houses are cheap and I could spend my time collecting and restoring some of the classic JBL's.  They'd go nicely with my by then also classic Devialet 1000Pro.  I can think of worse ways of spending my time.

Nudging this thread back on topic, I was reading a review of the new ATC SCM100SE actives in the April edition of hi-fi News & Record Review.  I was particularly interested in this review because a while ago I had the chance to listen to the earlier version of the SCM100 actives.  I thought they were excellent, the midrange was exceptional, but they did sound very lean to me, which was surprising considering that they are the size of a modest refrigerator.

The conclusion to the review is interesting, to quote:

"You can hardly blame these speakers for being too revealing  - after all that's what hi-fi is supposed to be about.  Yet while many will love the ability to hear deep into a mix, others may find the SCM100SE's harder to enjoy because the expose the shortcomings of many recordings.  Those listeners may hanker for something smoother, as the debate continues whether more "musical" just means "coloured".

Those words struck me as being very relevant here.  They also remind me of the statement in the Hifi+ review "Existing Export owners should make sure their system isn’t pitched into brightness before committing to an upgrade, because they will find the amount of detail on offer an intense experience."  and the Hifi Pig 220Pro review "The detail in the portrayal of the music means that if your music had any faults then it would show them off; something as a sound-engineer I really like. Some might, however, find the sound just a little too perfect and clinical, and lacking some depth and warmth."

It's all saying much the same thing I think, and as the ATC review indicates, this is not something unique to Devialet.  Personally, I have had great results recently adding a touch of Roon PEQ whenever I find myself listening to a recording that is perhaps a little bright or harsh.  In my crazier moments, I sometimes imagine Devialet one day adding a harmonic distortion mode, which can be selected on the new remote app to add some warmth to those "in your face" recordings.  It would be fun too if the reviewers reported that they found the Devialet to sound a little too cold and clinical, or unable to portray the emotion in the music, but found that it sounded great with DHD enabled.  (Devialet Harmonic Distortion - even the TLA sounds good)

I wonder if Devialet did add something like "DHD" if it would be seen as a useful feature, as well as adding showroom appeal to the amps, or if it would just be seen a gimmick to mask the amps perceived shortcomings?  Personally, I'd love a feature like this, imagine listening to a fine well-recorded album with the Devialet running in "pure mode", it sounds magnificent and you can relax and enjoy the music.  You then listen to something with fine music, but find yourself distracted by a harsh, thin, or poor recording.  Select "DHD" (or other similar feature) and it sounds great, you can again simply relax and enjoy the music.  Why not?  Here is another thought, if Devialet come out with another upgrade, that happened to be even more detailed and revealing, how many people would simply think that the Pro has gone far enough and stick with what they have.  As I said, just a thought.

And finally, my apologies for repeatedly using the "C word" in this post, it is not really acceptable. Sad   (clinical)
1000 Pro - KEF Blade - iFi Zen Stream - Mutec REF10 - MC3+USB - Pro-Ject Signature 12
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#35
I planned to visit this thread to respond to a post made earlier in the week from a well-known and respected member of this forum. However, I notice the subject post has been deleted, I guess he thought better of it and deleted. (which I understand) Just to say I very much enjoyed the subject post, the referenced sketch is one of my favorites, so it brought back happy memories and made me chuckle. Just a shame I've been condemned to (Rowan Atkinson) hell & eternal damnation for using the "C" word.

Anyway, I have some casual observations regarding my highly clinical 1000Pro which perhaps one or two readers will find interesting. (the rest will think I'm bonkers)

My "normal" listening mode is via my PC / locally stored music / Roon / HQPlayer / SOtM and Mutec "front end", however, this is not the only one way I use the system. Two other common ways I might listen are playing YouTube music via an iPad and Airplay or using the 1000Pro / Blades as the front speakers in a surround sound set up. The casual observation here is that as a general rule, the irritation I get from thin or poorly produced music is far less common listening via 128kbs tracks from YouTube or music in films and similar via the surround set-up.

So, this means playing music via Blu Ray player to the surround amp and then analogue to the Devialet, or 128kbs tracks from an iPad via Airplay, sounds better than 16/44 material via the "normal" route? No, it does not. To understand this, I have tried playing the same tracks via the Blu-ray player, HDMI to the surround amp, analogue to the Devialet versus via the "normal" route PC/SOtM/Mutec to Devialet. The difference is HUGE. Clarity, dynamics, detail, bass accuracy everything is substantially better via "normal". Via Blu-ray player / surround amp it is a far duller, softer, presentation to the sound. Yet, the tendency for this duller, softer sound to actually annoy me is far lower. It is a similar thing with iPad / 128kbs YouTube / Airplay, although with very good recordings this can still sound sensational, but it does somehow take just enough of an edge off to prevent those less than perfect recordings becoming actually irritating.

A simplistic conclusion to this is that with some material the Pro is too revealing. However, it is possible to make something highly revealing a little less revealing, to blunt the reproduction a touch, to get something less clinical, and more forgiving. To get something with an inherently forgiving, soft, or warm sound to sound sensational with a top quality recording is arguably impossible. The more I think about it, I would love the Devialet to have some kind of "warmth" plugin to assist with those less than perfect recordings. Meanwhile, I am happy to take my highly revealing Devialet just as it is, I would not swap it to go the "forgiving" route, not a chance.

I mentioned above that this is a simplistic conclusion. Back in post #21, I mentioned how a track I enjoyed in the car for it's music but thought it was a poor recording actually sounded great on the "big rig". There are no easy answers to all this, but as a compromise, I would take the most detailed and revealing (clinical) system I could get, but perhaps add some tricks to optionally "soften" it into warm & forgiving mode occasionally, as the music requires.

I am not sure if I have explained this very well, but another way of putting this is that there is no perfect system for audio reproduction. The problem being the vast variability of the actual recorded music the said system is utilised to play. The nearest I can think of to a perfect system would be highly revealing, clinical even, with options to "warm" or "blunt" the sound if required. This is not entirely fantastical either, I have my Roon PEQ settings, which combined with the 1000Pro get pretty close to this ideal.
1000 Pro - KEF Blade - iFi Zen Stream - Mutec REF10 - MC3+USB - Pro-Ject Signature 12
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#36
My previous post, edited to reflect my own calmer state of mind. And so it is:
@Confused
Interesting observations about the reviews and the language RE brightness (posts #21 & #34).

The other evening at home we were discussing differing preferences in how things taste; coffee, wine, truffles... all the smelly things life can offer, and how each person tastes thing differently. Chemical, past experiences or associations, whatever; we don't all like the same things. I'd assume then that we don't all want to hear the same thing, or find the same sound presentation appealing. A few years ago I was selling my original ProAc Tablettes (sp?) A fellow came over and I played some tracks, streaming through the D120 Pro and the other gear. He was not moved. He asked me to play vinyl, and I did. A few Donovan songs, scratches and all, with who knows what old cartridge, and he was hooked. The vinyl took him from clinical to captivated. It didn't do it for me but that was the vibe he was after.

In the context of reviews, it makes me think that with any publication, when readers have some understanding or familiarity with the preferences of a particular reviewer, it makes the reviews much more valuable. I suppose good reviews include enough comments and notes comparing or contrasting other equipment, giving the reader some of that familiarity.
Damon
Powernode, NAD M32, Cambridge CD transport, Analysis Plus, Nordost, iFi Nova, CSS Criton 1TDX, KEF C62
Vancouver, Canada
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#37
Devialet Expert 210 Pro Dual

Test in Stereo 03/2020
Test result: 97% Wink  Rolleyes

https://www.stereo.de/hifi-test?tx_stere...1148fd2f45


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Aavik U-280 / Audio Physic Cardeas / Melco N1ZS + D100 / Melco Switch S100 / KECES P8 Dual / Transparent Audio PowerWave X / Cable: Audioquest, Shunyata, Transparent, Ansuz Digitalz A2 Ethernet, USB
Remote: iPad-Pro
Roon Nucleus+(B), Lifetime / Qobuz Studio Sublime                                                                                                          
Germany / Bavaria
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#38
@K4680 - Interesting. The 170w @ 8 ohms figure, and the near doubling to 336w @4 is quite impressive. Does the review mention performance at 2 ohms?

Also, reading this has made me wonder. Do we have any members on the forum that actually run a 210 Pro? I cannot recall anyone mentioning that they do, but I may have missed it.

As an aside, there are one or two of the other amplifiers that also get the 97% rating that I happen to know have a rather different "flavour" to the Devialet. You pay your money and take your choice, as the saying goes. I guess it does indicate that the baby dual mono is holding its own at the moment, if nothing else.
1000 Pro - KEF Blade - iFi Zen Stream - Mutec REF10 - MC3+USB - Pro-Ject Signature 12
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#39
(01-Feb-2020, 11:03)alaw Wrote: The magazine preview is here: https://epaper.nitschke-verlag.de/show.php?id=498, though the review needs you to buy it.
There's also a two page advertisement for the Expert, so I think Devialet are still serious about the it.

Sorry, I just saw the photos are twisted !! Sad

May be what I want, I am loyal to Devialet !!
Aavik U-280 / Audio Physic Cardeas / Melco N1ZS + D100 / Melco Switch S100 / KECES P8 Dual / Transparent Audio PowerWave X / Cable: Audioquest, Shunyata, Transparent, Ansuz Digitalz A2 Ethernet, USB
Remote: iPad-Pro
Roon Nucleus+(B), Lifetime / Qobuz Studio Sublime                                                                                                          
Germany / Bavaria
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#40
Great to see Expert Pros, not only getting reviewed, but getting great reviews! Just confirming what we all already knew!
Devialet 440 Pro (two 220s)- Oracle CD transport - Kuzma Stabi S/Stogi S turntable - Von Schweikert VR-35 speakers - JPS SC3 SCs - PI Audio power conditioning -
Triode Wire Labs ICs and PCs - Roon on NUC 8i7beh running ROCK
Durham, NC USA
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