Highest Possible Sound Quality from iTunes

[GuillaumeB]

Well I am planning to listen to a few options - X100 vs CAD CAT vs N1Z vs N1ZH vs N10 anyone .....  I think getting some idea of the SQ deltas with this kind of kit will help my thought process.  (I'll need to be in OAC's good books to get though this lot!!)

EDIT:  Might as well do the N1A too while I'm at it ...

But Confused, of all your demo options, only one will allow you to use iTunes?

Personally, I really think this will be the year of some really interesting new products, and the start of the realisation that a digital music server doesn't have to cost £6K to sound good.  

That could of course be wishful thinking, and I'm fully prepared to be back here before long eating those words.  I just believe the current thinking - that of separating things into two boxes, a computer so you can do what you want with it, connected to a lightweight 'network renderer' than is solely responsible for handing the final bits over to the DAC - makes complete logical sense. Trying to build dedicated hardware from scratch just to host a music playback UI and at the same time avoid a computer (like an Aurender) will always be expensive.  Trying to turn to general purpose PC and OS that was never design for audio will always be expensive too.

When I demo'd the Aurender N100 I liked it - I thought it sounded really good actually and looked tasty - but I didn't like the iOS control Ap or having to use software to scan NAS files - and from that point on I would be annoyed by it and feel frustrated being locked into Aurenders product cycles.  So I couldn't go through with it.  When I read about Melco and its 3rd party control Apps I know I'd be the same. Roon isn't perfect I know, but I love its UI more than anything else I've tried, and it combines streaming. And because it sits on a computer, if it goes south or something better comes out, I can install that.  I also like there idea I can tinker with Dirac or whatever, which again, would be more difficult on custom hardware.

In a sense we're at a very interesting point in time.  CD was simple, and worked, and was pretty obvious.  I loved that about it.  A stack of discs, and a play button. Simple.  But could I ever find anything, no.  Take them away when travelling, no.  Play them at work or in the car, no.  Skip between tracks on albums and make playlists, no.  Rate, them ,etc etc etc yadda yadda.
Computer audio and streamed audio offers us nearly everything, but not necessarily all in the right boxes or software that talks together in the way that we want, and the bewildering array of options makes it all a bit 'pioneering'.  Luxury problems.  And exciting times in a frustrating sort of way.

Good luck!  Please post your findings…..

Some interesting points there around CD v streaming. Allow me to digress... many audiophiles simply do not think that streaming sounds as good as CDs, and it seems as though high-end CD players have enjoyed a bit of a renaissance lately. I've always found this a bit odd, all the more so since I bought Linn's whole rationale for streamers being better than CD players back in 2007 (remember the CD player is dead headline!), almost 10 years ago. It's like I couldn't imagine myself playing CDs, for all the reasons you have noted above and more! And yet... the last few times I have listened to CDs on some high-end systems including a Meridian 808 and a top of the range Metronome Technologies Kalista I have been seriously impressed by the detail and musicality of the sound. There is a syrupiness and fluidity to the sound that just seems to be lacking with (high-end) streamers. I've discussed this with many dealers and distributors and yes there is a bit of a consensus here... 

It's almost like a bit of a repeat of the CD v tape/vinyl arguments we had before. On paper streaming should be the most elegant and effective system (no moving parts, lasers etc), yet in practice we seemingly run into millions of issues, witness the zillions of threads from networks to formats. There are just so many variables compared to CD replay, many of which are out of our control or are items we did not realise could possibly impact on the sound. 

I do believe the gap is closing, or at least I convince myself that it has! I am actually thinking about borrowing a really good CD transport and testing this for myself. 

I firmly believe that these all-in-one boxes (and I don't own one by the way!) are the latest development in bridging this gap, for the simple reason that every element: 1) storage, 2) network, 3) renderer and 4) control are optimised in such a way that the DAC is presented with something that is very low in jitter and is noise-free. If you think about it, much in the same way as a CD player! 

Guillaume

[Confused]

Some interesting posts! Plus even as OP I don't mind that some of this has gone off topic, I am currently finding that if I try to think clearly about music server options and related topics, iTunes, Roon, Microrendu, modded computers, reclockers etc, my brain goes rapidly off topic also.

A few thoughts:

Re Guillaume's comment on CAD CAT pricing "Just checked with Jon: £6300 for 1TB model and £6800 for 2TB... That's squarely in N1Z territory...." This is clearly a statement of fact! All I can say is that maybe the CAD CAT sounds as good as an N1Z, maybe it does not. So clearly a careful audition is required here, but it also occurs to me that the CAD CAT is a minimum of £2800 more than the N1H, that could be stiff opposition in the SQ stakes I suspect.

Then we have Hifi_Swlon comment: "of all your demo options, only one will allow you to use iTunes?". This is also very true! And not only that, I am not sure that running iTunes on a Windows 8 based CAD CAT is a good idea with respect to sound quality. Using PC / iTunes / AIR is a clear SQ deficit to the same with Roon or JRiver. So the CAD CAT option would be a 6K spend that you then knobble with iTunes, not a good idea. But this is where Roon offers a nice solution. One thing Roon does very well is pick up iTunes playlists. So you can spend a bit of time in iTunes setting up whatever playlists you desire. Once done, you have the CAD CAT running full Roon, pretty interface, nice app, lyrics and other fluff AND decent SQ. The same of course would be true of anything that becomes Roon compatible, it's interesting to see the Antipodes now offers Roon, I wonder how many more will follow soon? I think if I could get top SQ and Roon that I'd be happy. Plus, although I do have a few gripes with Roon currently, it is still being developed, so a case of good now, and who knows how good in the future. (Typing this I've just remembered the TotalDac is 'Roon ready', but just as an 'end point' I'm guessing?)

As for CD players, an interesting topic, but here my mind is crystal clear. I do actually have a half decent CD player looking pretty in my rack, and it has not been used for a very long time. I can recall the days of hunting endlessly for the one CD that has to be played now (where is the ###### thing!!), mornings after a great evening, with 27 CD empty cases lying around, but only 25 CD's. Finding a much loved CD, opening the case, nothing in it, I could go on, but you get the point. One thing I am most definitely not going to do is go all in and buy an expensive CD player.

It has to be said though, the options here are endless. My brain is now thinking get a Melco N1A. It offers almost all of the SQ you could get anywhere at a very reasonable price, sit back and enjoy while the world of music servers develops at 100mph.

The other thought in my brain now is that I need to audition a few things to sharpen up my understanding of the performance per £ available currently....

Oh, and then there's that Microrendu widget......

[mobaer]

Also, it occurs to me that a simple solution would be to use a Mac of some sort, maybe with SSD, linear PSU, then USB to a Mutec MC3+USB, XLR to the Devialet.  I'm sure this would work (although F1eng had issues with a Mac + Mutec combo), but I am not sure if it would match a Melco or similar.  (does anyone know how good the SQ might be with this set up?)

But is there a better way?  What would be the ultimate solution?

I use exactly the setup, that you describe (except the linear PSU). Introducing the Mutec between Mac Mini and Devialet has increased sound quality a lot. By re-clocking the signal from the Mac it reduces jitter, and transfers the cleaned signal via XLR to the Devialet. For me it enhanced the three-dimensional representation.
I started using Audirvana instead of iTunes, because Audirvana offers the possibility to configure upsampling depending on the sampling frequency of the source material. I use this feature for upsampling my music in CD quality to 176,4 kHz. As a result to me strings sound a little more natural (just to give an example).
I would prefer Roon over Audirvana because of its user interface, but unfortunately Roon doesn't have an integrated upsampling engine.

In theory the ultimate solution should be AIR in bit perfect mode!
In that case you do not have to worry about jitter, because data transfer is asynchroneous and buffered. No clocking issues can occur. However, AIR doesn't work reliable in my case.
If the Devialet had a clock input you could synchronize Mutec and Devialet and by this eliminate jitter. The result should be the same as with AIR. Sadly, Devialet does not offer that option.

In a perfect world I would use Roon with upsampling feature (under development as stated by Roon Labs) and AIR in bit perfect mode. Until this comes true, I go the way that you described and I am quite happy with it.

Hi Confused, sorry for having interfered your discussion  

[GuillaumeB]

Hey Confused... does your CD player have a digital out? 

Guillaume

[Confused]

Hey Confused... does your CD player have a digital out? 

Guillaume

Indeed it does.  It also occurs to me that I've never tried it with my baby reclocker (W4S remedy, not a Mutec)

[GuillaumeB]

Hey Confused... does your CD player have a digital out? 

Guillaume

Indeed it does.  It also occurs to me that I've never tried it with my baby reclocker (W4S remedy, not a Mutec)

Right.... Pls try without reclocker first! This should be really interesting!

I am going to carry out a similar experiment when I get my hands on a transport. 

By the way, I am not for one minute suggesting to anyone to go back to CDs... There is no way I am. This is just a SQ experiment. 

Guillaume

[Confused]

Oh, and @mobaer - interfering? Yours was the second most sensible post of the lot!

[Hifi_swlon]

 (Typing this I've just remembered the TotalDac is 'Roon ready', but just as an 'end point' I'm guessing?)
...

It has to be said though, the options here are endless.  My brain is now thinking get a Melco N1A.  It offers almost all of the SQ you could get anywhere at a very reasonable price, sit back and enjoy while the world of music servers develops at 100mph.  

TotalDAC not there yet FYI. (asterisks on the RoonReady page = undergoing certification)

What would you 'drive' the Melco with front-end wise out of interest? Or maybe its SQ is so good (feedback definitely suggest this) the iTunes/Roon/other debate would be less important, you might just forget about it!

Oh,  and then there's that Microrendu widget...…

Well, there is that too! But then no iTunes there either. And it might be rubbish for all we know - but it sounds like there will be at least some less biased reports coming in pretty soon.

Maybe the Melco is the place to start - if you like how it sounds and you can live with a control Ap, then you're set. They've said they're looking at RoonReady so at least there's a hint of hope for the future if you wanted to go back to Roon. But then N1A or N1ZH!?

Or maybe at the end of April you'll have the option of a new streaming board for you expert(s)….

[oxfordaudio]

At the risk of opening a can of worms, why don't we have a Devialetchat Streamer/Server/Computer day at Oxford Audio?

Both Jon and I used to swear by AIR (We used to demo the Devialet amps with nothing more than a stock Mac mini and an Ipad at one point!) but have gradually drifted towards the Aurender and Melco options for out of the shop listening. Not too long ago I had a very interesting day out with Guillaume, Rufus and Nick comparing the basic Aurender, Melco and a Macbook through a USB reclocking device. The most interesting part of the day for me was how inconclusive it was!

I think it would be a good opportunity for anyone "on the fence" to have a listen and a play with most of the available options to see what works for them. I will try and have as comprehensive as possible a list of kit which will include:

CAD Cat
Melco Range
Aurender Range
Stock PC/Mac

I will liaise with both Guillaume and Confused to get a date in the Calendar. If anyone is interested in popping along, would they mind emailing me (shop@oxfordaudio.co.uk) so that I can get an idea of numbers.

It should be an interesting day for anyone who would like to come along. The main system will of course emulate Confused's so will also be an opportunity for anyone curious to listen to the tremendous Kef Blades. If you haven't met Jon or I before, this isn't a high pressure sales event and we would love to meet some new Devialet owners. We're both Devialet owners ourselves and we're always keen to see if there are any ways that we aren't aware of to make the most out of our own systems!

Hope to see you all soon

Alasdair

[thumb5]

Alasdair, that sounds like a very interesting day. I would like to attend, dates permitting (and will e-mail you).