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Mac Mini vs Innuos Mini MK ll.
#11
(11-Jul-2019, 00:35)RebelMan Wrote:
(10-Jul-2019, 11:04)Pim Wrote: Mac mini's are quite overpriced nowadays. I have one but if i were to need to replace it I'd go dedicated streamer. The price difference isn't that large anymore.

Indeed, they have skyrocketed and I agree with you but if you live in an Apple centric ecosystem you may have to consider the impact to that as well.


I live in "Apple centric system" too, because turns my life and work easier, pleasant and practical, but it does´nt reach these standards in terms of what I intend as a music system. I prefer a dedicated "built for" solution, that´s why i´m thinking in Innuos mini temporarily, before a good server/streamer in a near (i hope ) future.
Mac mini with Roon, Devialet 220 Pro CI, Black Sixteen speaker cables, Sonus Faber Guarneri Tradition and a pair of ears.
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#12
RebelMan Wrote:
Stino Wrote:Sorry to contradict the above but the Mac mini is not a Great streamer. You can put an ssd in it, a new power supply and so on, but then still you will be better of with a dedicated streamer for the same price. You will find this conclusion on many online fora and I believe John Darko reviewed in the past Some cheaper alternatives to the Mac mini... Good luck and have fun.

Wrong.  The Mac mini is a fantastic streamer and it cannot be bettered.  Modding it with SSDs and different power supplies make no difference whatsoever to signal integrity.  I can show you objective measurements that prove this, can you to the contrary?  Where people go wrong is in how they configure it and how they use it which done incorrectly can make the Mac mini underperform.  However, there is nothing inherent about the hardware that is faulty or inferior to any other streamer.

The people that spread the mistruths about the Mac mini are the same people that BELIEVE upgraded power cords and power conditioners and voltage regulators and so forth are better than using stock equipment.  These people take leaps of faith and pawn it off to others that they can hear the difference, which is all bunk.  If people want to invest in other solutions that is perfectly fine and I can see the value in doing so.  But spreading mistruths that it's going to sound better just for having done so is grossly misleading.  Observing and sharing the science in audio is is far more valuable and rewarding than learning and spreading the faith in audio.

If you have some links to the measurements that would be interesting.  I think I am more of a "subjectivist" that you would claim to be, but I am always interested in decent data, measurements, and similar.
1000 Pro - KEF Blade - iFi Zen Stream - Mutec REF10 - MC3+USB - Pro-Ject Signature 12
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#13
I think it's always worth bearing in mind that listening to music (audio) is a subjective experience.  If someone tells you they hear or do not hear a difference when they use <insert controversial system component of choice> then that is an unarguably valid statement of fact, irrespective of whether or not there are any objective or measurable differences.  On the other hand if they tell you that you will or won't hear a difference, that's speculation and debatable.
Roon (Mac Mini), Wilson Benesch Full Circle, Expert 1000 Pro CI, Kaiser Chiara
Warwickshire, UK
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#14
(11-Jul-2019, 03:14)David A Wrote:
(11-Jul-2019, 00:35)RebelMan Wrote:
(10-Jul-2019, 11:04)Pim Wrote: Mac mini's are quite overpriced nowadays. I have one but if i were to need to replace it I'd go dedicated streamer. The price difference isn't that large anymore.

Indeed, they have skyrocketed and I agree with you but if you live in an Apple centric ecosystem you may have to consider the impact to that as well.

I live in an "Apple centric ecosystem": Mac Mini desktop computer, iPhone, iPads, Apple TV, and I use a Roon Nucleus+ for my server. Absolutely no problems in an Apple ecosystem. I simply connected the Nucleus+ by ethernet and the Mac Mini could see it immediately. I download music purchases to the Mac Mini, open the zip files, and do a drag and drop copy of the files to the SSD in the Nucleus+. I use Roon's iOS app to control streaming and use a browser interface for managing Roon OS updates and other server OS related issues. I previously used an Antipodes DS in exactly the same way. It's 2 years now since I stopped using my Mac Mini as a server and I have had no problems in an Apple centric ecosystem and no regrets about replacing the Mac Mini as a server.

I can't see that there's any impact to consider if you're using Apple gear.

iTunes!
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."
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#15
(11-Jul-2019, 09:51)BoyScout Wrote:
(11-Jul-2019, 00:35)RebelMan Wrote:
(10-Jul-2019, 11:04)Pim Wrote: Mac mini's are quite overpriced nowadays. I have one but if i were to need to replace it I'd go dedicated streamer. The price difference isn't that large anymore.

Indeed, they have skyrocketed and I agree with you but if you live in an Apple centric ecosystem you may have to consider the impact to that as well.


I live in "Apple centric system" too, because turns my life and work easier, pleasant and practical, but it does´nt reach these standards in terms of what I intend as a music system. I prefer a dedicated "built for" solution, that´s why i´m thinking in Innuos mini temporarily, before a good server/streamer in a near (i hope ) future.

The Mac mini is capable of doing many things but it doesn't have to.  It can be configured for dedicated applications like serving music.  Just remember every streamer out there is a computer!  Most are some type of linux appliance with a polished front end like Roon Nucleus and it's derivatives.
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."
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#16
(11-Jul-2019, 12:57)Confused Wrote:
RebelMan Wrote:
Stino Wrote:Sorry to contradict the above but the Mac mini is not a Great streamer. You can put an ssd in it, a new power supply and so on, but then still you will be better of with a dedicated streamer for the same price. You will find this conclusion on many online fora and I believe John Darko reviewed in the past Some cheaper alternatives to the Mac mini... Good luck and have fun.

Wrong.  The Mac mini is a fantastic streamer and it cannot be bettered.  Modding it with SSDs and different power supplies make no difference whatsoever to signal integrity.  I can show you objective measurements that prove this, can you to the contrary?  Where people go wrong is in how they configure it and how they use it which done incorrectly can make the Mac mini underperform.  However, there is nothing inherent about the hardware that is faulty or inferior to any other streamer.

The people that spread the mistruths about the Mac mini are the same people that BELIEVE upgraded power cords and power conditioners and voltage regulators and so forth are better than using stock equipment.  These people take leaps of faith and pawn it off to others that they can hear the difference, which is all bunk.  If people want to invest in other solutions that is perfectly fine and I can see the value in doing so.  But spreading mistruths that it's going to sound better just for having done so is grossly misleading.  Observing and sharing the science in audio is is far more valuable and rewarding than learning and spreading the faith in audio.

If you have some links to the measurements that would be interesting.  I think I am more of a "subjectivist" that you would claim to be, but I am always interested in decent data, measurements, and similar.

Will do.
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."
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#17
(11-Jul-2019, 13:28)thumb5 Wrote: I think it's always worth bearing in mind that listening to music (audio) is a subjective experience.  If someone tells you they hear or do not hear a difference when they use <insert controversial system component of choice> then that is an unarguably valid statement of fact, irrespective of whether or not there are any objective or measurable differences.  On the other hand if they tell you that you will or won't hear a difference, that's speculation and debatable.

I see your point, but how do you really know what it is you are hearing (or not)?  What is your frame of reference?  Is it your memory?  The mind can play tricks on you.  Without a common frame of reference how can one truthfully say one thing sounds better than another?  Let's say you found the Roon Nucleus to sound better than the Mac mini.  Now let's say I found the Mac mini to sound better than the Roon Nucleus.  Which is it?  If all a person has to go by is just the opinions of others then how is that really helpful?  Since people's opinions are influenced by their own biases there is no way to know for sure what the truth is.  Don't you want to know the truth?  Have you ever been deceived by deceptive marketing?  How did it make you feel to learn the truth about it later on?

Taking measurements establishes a common frame of reference that is free of any bias.  If a claim is made that component A sounds better than component B but the measurements cannot support such a claim then you know that it cannot be true.  Subjective experiences should lead one to personal preferences not absolutism.  When someone says component A sounds better than competent B what they are really implying is that component A is better than component B which is a problem.  If a person were to say they prefer component A to component B then that is when the statement becomes an unarguably valid fact.  However, keep in mind too that having a preference does not necessarily imply correctness.
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."
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#18
(11-Jul-2019, 16:01)RebelMan Wrote: ...
I see your point, but how do you really know what it is you are hearing (or not)?  What is your frame of reference?  Is it your memory?  The mind can play tricks on you.  Without a common frame of reference how can one truthfully say one thing sounds better than another?  Let's say you found the Roon Nucleus to sound better than the Mac mini.  Now let's say I found the Mac mini to sound better than the Roon Nucleus.  Which is it?

That's exactly the problem with a subjective experience.  I agree that all of those questions are valid but I am not sure there is a way to answer any of them in a meaningful or objective way.  Experiences of the same stimulus can vary with time, frame of mind, etc. so there is no well-defined "which is it?" -- "it" can always change.  I think one has to be happy with that realisation and simply live with it.

(11-Jul-2019, 16:01)RebelMan Wrote: If all a person has to go by is just the opinions of others then how is that really helpful?  Since people's opinions are influenced by their own biases there is no way to know for sure what the truth is.  Don't you want to know the truth?  Have you ever been deceived by deceptive marketing?  How did it make you feel to learn the truth about it later on?

Well, it depends very much what you mean by "the truth".  How are you defining that?  It sounds like you are talking about something you feel should be objective, that everyone would agree on.  That is never going to happen when we're discussing a subjective experience as everyone in effect has their own private version of the truth (as they hear it).

(11-Jul-2019, 16:01)RebelMan Wrote: Taking measurements establishes a common frame of reference that is free of any bias.  If a claim is made that component A sounds better than component B but the measurements cannot support such a claim then you know that it cannot be true.

No, I don't think that's a valid conclusion, since there are many things other than measurements that might affect what any individual perceives as "better".  Some may be relevant to some people but not others.  So A may say "X is better than Y" and B may say "no, it's not" -- both are equally valid (true) since they are just expressing personal preference about their subjective experience of the sound.

It's quite well known that some people prefer the sound of valve amplifiers, i.e. for those people they sound better, although they usually don't measure as well as solid-state amplifiers.  But (in my view) you can't tell people they are "wrong", because subjectively they prefer the sound -- which is precisely what we mean when we say something "sounds better", isn't it?

Of course you can still say: "this (valve) amplifier is technically inferior to that (solid-state) amplifier because it has higher distortion", which you can support objectively by measurement, and no-one could argue with that.  In that sense it establishes a common frame of reference, just as you said, but one that may or may not have any bearing on the subjective experience.

(11-Jul-2019, 16:01)RebelMan Wrote: Subjective experiences should lead one to personal preferences not absolutism.  When someone says component A sounds better than competent B what they are really implying is that component A is better than component B which is a problem.  If a person were to say they prefer component A to component B then that is when the statement becomes an unarguably valid fact.  However, keep in mind too that having a preference does not necessarily imply correctness.

When people say "sounds better" one should read it as "sounds better, to me" since they can't possibly have any experience of how it sounds to anyone but themselves.  That aside, this is exactly the point I was making.  It seems we agree Smile
Roon (Mac Mini), Wilson Benesch Full Circle, Expert 1000 Pro CI, Kaiser Chiara
Warwickshire, UK
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#19
By the way, sorry to the OP for going off topic a bit.
Roon (Mac Mini), Wilson Benesch Full Circle, Expert 1000 Pro CI, Kaiser Chiara
Warwickshire, UK
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#20
(11-Jul-2019, 00:28)RebelMan Wrote:
(10-Jul-2019, 09:42)Stino Wrote: Sorry to contradict the above but the Mac mini is not a Great streamer. You can put an ssd in it, a new power supply and so on, but then still you will be better of with a dedicated streamer for the same price. You will find this conclusion on many online fora and I believe John Darko reviewed in the past Some cheaper alternatives to the Mac mini... Good luck and have fun.

Wrong.  The Mac mini is a fantastic streamer and it cannot be bettered.  Modding it with SSDs and different power supplies make no difference whatsoever to signal integrity.  I can show you objective measurements that prove this, can you to the contrary?  Where people go wrong is in how they configure it and how they use it which done incorrectly can make the Mac mini underperform.  However, there is nothing inherent about the hardware that is faulty or inferior to any other streamer.

The people that spread the mistruths about the Mac mini are the same people that BELIEVE upgraded power cords and power conditioners and voltage regulators and so forth are better than using stock equipment.  These people take leaps of faith and pawn it off to others that they can hear the difference, which is all bunk.  If people want to invest in other solutions that is perfectly fine and I can see the value in doing so.  But spreading mistruths that it's going to sound better just for having done so is grossly misleading.  Observing and sharing the science in audio is is far more valuable and rewarding than learning and spreading the faith in audio.


Mr Rebelman. Not sure how you want me to reply on such a post of yours. Measurements nowadays do not say a lot.  Like many amplifiers that have extremely good measurements yet they sound very different.

i respect tour opinion that a Mac mini is the best streamer around but you should also accept that many here will think (and have heared) otherwise.
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