Mutec Ref-10

[SwissBear]

Closer to audiophile's heaven: the Mutec Ref-10 is all about dynamics and micro-dynamics in my opinion...
 
Last week I had transformed my Mutec MC-3+ USB, removing the internal SPMS and plugging a fantastic Paul Hynes LPSU instead. This had brought an incredible transparency to the sound of my system, lifting one of the last veils...
This morning I received my brand new Ref-10. I did not spend a fortune on the BNC cables, just bought the basic Mogami cables to sart with.
The very first perceptions I have are about dynamics and micro-dynamics. Which means that my perception of the inherent dynamic of the sound is not altered by the reproduction process. I tend to perceive sounds and forte a little louder than with the internal clock of the MC-3+ USB, or with the direct connection of Roon/AIR. I also tend to find the transients much cleaner than I ever perceived them. This is striking when listening to piano for instance.
Which also makes turning back to the 'standard' reproduction mode, ie without the Ref-10, a little flat and insipid...
 
Another incredible benefit of this new device is in the field of micro-dynamics. I tend to perceive a lot more micro-details, micro-vibrations, which make the sound much more real, and the hair on my forearms raise under the emotion of the close to perfect sound reproduction. The voices have more body, the string vibrations sound strikingly realistic...
 
Hats off for Mr. Peters and his team, who have made it exceptionally once again

[zdenes]

Are you feeding the Mutec straight from a PC? I have SOtM sms-200 ultra and thinking of having it modified to accept the Ref10 clock (if I get one).
Are you planning to use any other clock output on the Ref10?

Zoltan


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SwissBear]

Are you feeding the Mutec straight from a PC? I have SOtM sms-200 ultra and thinking of having it modified to accept the Ref10 clock (if I get one).
Are you planning to use any other clock output on the Ref10?

Zoltan


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi Zoltan,

As I explained here:https://devialetchat.com/showthread.php?...3#pid65333 , I removed my SOtM sMS-200 from the chain when I modified my MacMini, fed it with the Paul Hynes LPSU and noticed that the sMS-200 was not bringing anything anymore.

As far as the sMS-200 Ultra is concerned, I have difficulties understanding how an asynchronous flow (USB at the output of the sMS-200 Ultra) can be improved by a better clock (Ref-10), whereas it is easier for me to understand how an AES/EBU flow (between the Mutec MC-3+ USB and the Devialet), can be improved by a better clock (Ref-10), as AES/EBU does not only embark data, but the time signal as well.

So if I will try to find someone in my surrounding to make the test at home prior to spending another 2 grands on the sMS-200 Ultra.

[Confused]

I am pleased to read you have obtained some good initial results with the REF10, very encouraging. One observation I would make is that I have read some posts on CA suggesting the REF10 needs some time to settle in. (I guess you have read this yourself) I know the concept of 'burn in' time is controversial, but there are good scientific reasons for clocks needing time to 'settle in', the main debate is regarding just how long this takes.

So my advice is do absolutely nothing. Leave it powered up, and come the weekend it might actually be sounding even better!

[zdenes]

Are you feeding the Mutec straight from a PC? I have SOtM sms-200 ultra and thinking of having it modified to accept the Ref10 clock (if I get one).
Are you planning to use any other clock output on the Ref10?

Zoltan


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As far as the sMS-200 Ultra is concerned, I have difficulties understanding how an asynchronous flow (USB at the output of the sMS-200 Ultra) can be improved by a better clock (Ref-10), whereas it is easier for me to understand how an AES/EBU flow (between the Mutec MC-3+ USB and the Devialet), can be improved by a better clock (Ref-10), as AES/EBU does not only embark data, but the time signal as well.

Swissbear, I totally understand you not understanding why/how the SMS-200 ultra can be improved by re-clocking. Neither do I but there seems to be a general view that the ultra is better than the original and the main difference is the sCLK-ex clock added. In fact, I witnessed a conversation between Mr. Peters in Munich and Mr. Kim (maybe it's his first name) of SOtM in Munich where they were talking about adding a 10MHz input option into the ultra so that it can accommodate the Ref10. I guess the two of them have quite some knowledge between them, probably not just a marketing gimmick.
Let's hope somebody here or over on the CA forum will be able to test it.
Zoltan

[SwissBear]

Swissbear, I totally understand you not understanding why/how the SMS-200 ultra can be improved by re-clocking. Neither do I but there seems to be a general view that the ultra is better than the original and the main difference is the sCLK-ex clock added. In fact, I witnessed a conversation between Mr. Peters in Munich and Mr. Kim (maybe it's his first name) of SOtM in Munich where they were talking about adding a 10MHz input option into the ultra so that it can accommodate the Ref10. I guess the two of them have quite some knowledge between them, probably not just a marketing gimmick.
Let's hope somebody here or over on the CA forum will be able to test it.
Zoltan

I guess we are on the same page . I will share my conclusions with you if I can arrange such a test.

[Confused]

Picking up on zdenes' and SwissBear's comments here, I have to say that for me this is one of the most interesting topics in audio at the moment.  Much is being posted on Computer Audiophile currently regarding trials with set-ups known as 'the trifecta' and similar.  There are actually subtle differences between 'trifecta' or 'Ultra trifecta' set-ups, but basically it is a chain of a modified network switch, a SOtM-sMS-200Ultra, and a SOtM-tX-USBUltra.  In some cases the sMS-200 is not an ultra, but has a clock tap and runs from a SOtM-sCLKex.  I fact, that's the idea, the switch, the 200 and the tX-USB all run from a sCLK-ex board.  A number of users are reporting excellent results with this, and with similar variations on this theme.  Curiously, the one thing that appears to make a big difference is the modified switch.  This is curious because an Ethernet switch is dealing with packet data which ultimately gets buffered and then clocked in the downstream devices, so exactly why a clock modified switch helps sound quality is difficult to explain.  Arguably the best (only?) explanation so far is that it works 'for reasons not yet fully understood'.  Another explanation I have seen on CA is that this is some kind of mass delusion, one user reports great benefit from the modified switch or clock chain, another user tries the same, and he want to join the party and be on this path of audiophile discovery, so he hears and reports similar findings, due to some mixture of expectation bias and confirmation bias, another bod does the same, that's three results, so concept confirmed scientifically.  (or not really)  Personally, I think the number of reports and, the type and experience of those people reporting, indicate that something real is happening.  There is also a plan to create a test rig to actually pinpoint and measure exactly what is going on here.  Interesting stuff!  So something to keep an eye on, and the reason I am posting this here is that you could of course use a Mutec REF10 to provide the clock reference to everything in a 'Ultra Trifecta' chain.  How well this would work with a Devialet is any one's guess!  I'm guessing it would be pretty good, even if not everything was providing the claimed benefits, it could still be very good.

Of course all of this contrasts to what SwissBear is doing, that is using the REF10 to improve the AES3 output of a Mutec MC3+USB.  The AES3 protocol uses the clock in the feed to generate a clock in the receiving device, so here it is much easier to explain why this works.  One slight caveat here is that there are different ways an AES3 receiving device (in this case Devialet 'Magic Wire' / ADH) can use this clock, and I do not think anyone outside of Devialet knows exactly how this is implemented.  Anyway, there are good technical reasons why it should work, so no surprise when it does.

I have tentative thoughts of buying a REF10, and I can think of a few ways of using one, as follows:

1. To feed my Mutec MC3+USB (Same as SwissBear)
2. To feed my Mutec MC3+USB, plus a sMS-200Ultra (replacement for my mR)
3. To feed an 'Ultra Trifecta' chain and my Mutec MC3+USB
4. To feed the Mutec MC3+USB, and use this as a word clock for another device, such as the dCS Network Bridge, or even the dCS Vivaldi Upsampler.  (would be a lot cheaper than the Vivaldi master clock, which is £10k in the UK)
5. To provide a clock reference feed to the Devialet OS Core Intelligence streamer board.  (a bit radical and would need something like the sCLK-ex)
6  To provide a clock reference feed to the Devialet ADH.  (so radical I can hardly comprehend, may not be possible, and may make things worse)

For the record, I can't imagine anyone doing 5 or 6, but you never know!  1 to 4 would be relatively easy to do, it's just a case of how good the sound quality performance proves to be in reality, how many boxes you want (or can put up with), and how much you want to spend.  Personally, I would want the maximum SQ for minimum cash, just an informed guess but I reckon that would be 1 or 2 above.  Money no object?  I would go with the dCS Vivaldi Upsampler / Mutec / REF10, which would offer some change from £20K.  So something over £18K retail for the dCS Vivaldi Upsampler / Mutec / REF10 option realistically takes us back to option 1 or 2 I think.  Who knows!  Plus I may think of other cunning uses of a REF10 later.

EDIT:  I have just thought of another cunning use for a REF10.  It could provide the reference clock for an Aurender W20, I am certain that that would sound quite superb, the W20 does anyway, all by itself.  Very expensive though, and Conductor app only.

[zdenes]

Good points, Confused.

I don't think 5-6 will ever happen. Do we even know what clock is the Devialet?

My main concern regarding the purchase a Ref10 is that it has so many outputs that I could use and would be using one only. Maybe two if my SMS-200 ultra is modified to take the clock. Is there Ethernet switch out there which could be modified to take 10Mhz or is 25Mhz the industry standard? Or any other use of the clocks?

I have a feeling that if I bought a Ref10, I would want a DAC that takes the 10Mhz clock and then maybe two monoblocks. In other words, the Ref10 would make the Devialet somewhat obsolete which I don't want...

Zoltan

[SwissBear]

In other words, the Ref10 would make the Devialet somewhat obsolete which I don't want...

Hi Zoltan,

If you allow me, obsolete might not be the appropriate word. Sub-obtimal, in the sense not using the Ref-10 signal, might be more appropriate .

But this is already the case. On the other hand, the Devialet is one of the most transparent and best performing in its price range. So why change it ?

[zdenes]

In other words, the Ref10 would make the Devialet somewhat obsolete which I don't want...

 Sub-obtimal, in the sense not using the Ref-10 signal, might be more appropriate .

You're right, that is a better word for the situation