No more dropouts streaming Roon RAAT over gigabit ethernet

[mdconnelly]

@mdconnelly ,

I never really had problems with dropouts from the "audio file is loading slowly" problem with RAAT. I could reliably trigger the problem by playing 24/192 files with a gigabit connection but I don't have any 24/192 files so I had to get Roon to upscale lower res files to 24/192 to get the problem and I prefer to have Roon stream files at their native resolution and let the Devialet do the upscaling so I never really had the problem in "real life" with my setup. In addition, in January this year I installed an Uptone Audio ETHERRegen so since then I've been using a 100 connection to the Devialet, not a gigabit connection.

On the other hand, since installing the new Devialet FW, I have had a number of times when I have experienced dropouts. On each occasion the cause was the Devialet disappearing from the list of Roon Ready output, even though the Devialet still appeared as an output for Roon's AIR. Obviously Roon continues to see my amp but, for some reason, the RAAT connection "breaks". I can't remember noticing this problem before the latest Devialet FW. It's possible that this problem started with the latest Roon update on 20 October, 2 weeks after the latest Devialet FW, but I think the first of this sort of dropout occurred for me before the Roon update but after the Devialet update. I wonder whether Devialet introduced some new problem in the latest FW which affects ethernet and RAAT on any speed connection.

Devialet's FW release notes for the latest FW only state that it provides improvements with RAAT, not that they have fixed the problem, so I don't think we can say it's fixed quite yet.

I have seen a problem similar to what you've recently experienced.   It's only happened twice and I have reported it to Devialet with no response as of yet.  The first time, I went to listen to music via RAAT and noticed that my RAAT end point was no longer there.   The second time I was actually listening to music via AIR and the music just stopped.  When I checked Roon, the AIR endpoint was there but simply not working.   The RAAT endpoint was gone.  Restarting Roon did nothing to recover from the problem.   In both cases, rebooting my Expert Pro is what was required to get it working again.  This occurred both times since since the recent Devialet FW update.   Unfortunately, in neither case did I attempt to use my Expert Pro for any other purpose before rebooting it.  If it happens again, I will certainly try that next.

So yes, there must still be a problem with their Roon RAAT implementation that causes it to crash.  That is certainly a Devialet bug.   I have no idea if they've diagnosed it at all.   It has not (yet) happened since I moved to ROCK on NUC, but I will report it to Devialet support each time it does.

[Soniclife]

I think there's a danger in simply saying that the problem "belongs" to anyone.  The failure may only arise for certain combinations of hardware and software, and a handful of hardware manufacturers and software developers will have produced those components.  Only when the right intersection of components is put together will the problem result in a failure, so it can't truly be said to "belong" to any single hardware or software developer.  The fact that a failure is only reproducible when component X is used doesn't mean that it's caused by a defect in X: it may be a fault in component Y which is only manifested by some interaction with X.  You can only say the problem belongs to a specific component when the root cause is known, and even then it may not be a cut-and-dried decision.

I agree, given that some people don't get the issue makes me wary or putting all the blame on Devialet, especially given how variable PC OS builds are compared to the firmware + config in the amps. The recent firmware upgrade improved things, it's almost usable for me now, so with some bugs fixed fresh experiments are needed. As someone who fixes code I know just how hard it is to keep looking for problems in your own code once you have proved there is a problem at the other end of a chain, but the other system being wrong does not make yours perfect, though it can make it almost impossible to debug.

Does anyone with Rock have this problem now?

[K4680]

I think there's a danger in simply saying that the problem "belongs" to anyone.  The failure may only arise for certain combinations of hardware and software, and a handful of hardware manufacturers and software developers will have produced those components.  Only when the right intersection of components is put together will the problem result in a failure, so it can't truly be said to "belong" to any single hardware or software developer.  The fact that a failure is only reproducible when component X is used doesn't mean that it's caused by a defect in X: it may be a fault in component Y which is only manifested by some interaction with X.  You can only say the problem belongs to a specific component when the root cause is known, and even then it may not be a cut-and-dried decision.

I agree, given that some people don't get the issue makes me wary or putting all the blame on Devialet, especially given how variable PC OS builds are compared to the firmware + config in the amps.  The recent firmware upgrade improved things, it's almost usable for me now, so with some bugs fixed fresh experiments are needed.  As someone who fixes code I know just how hard it is to keep looking for problems in your own code once you have proved there is a problem at the other end of a chain, but the other system being wrong does not make yours perfect, though it can make it almost impossible to debug.

Does anyone with Rock have this problem now?

Hello, no thanks god no more problems! At the beginning I used a mac mini, a short time later there was a breakdown and long charging times. Mac Mini deleted and completely new installed (not from a backup !!). So it ran for a few days, then there were dropouts again etc. Next, a Win 10 notebook with i7 and 8GB and SSD was used, the same thing happened as with the Mac. Since we still had some NUC's in reserve from a project, I installed Rock on an i7. What can I say, the NUC ran for months without any errors, in the GB network! Seven months ago I exchanged the NUC for a ROON Nucleus, not because of the function, but only because of the fan !! I hope it stays that way, crossed fingers.

[Jean-Marie]

I don't know what is the root cause, but I can confirm that it is likely to be a hairy combination of factors.

I had occasional stopping of Raat (just hitting play again was resolving the issue) perhaps once every two days... I was blaming Roon, my D220ci... until my company stoped using Symantec Endpoint Protection as an antivirus and security enforcement tool and switched to Microsoft Defender ATP.
Suddenly, no more drops....

Similarly, a couple of 3 or 4 month ago, I started to have the 'slow loading file' issue with Roon Raat, to the point that I could no longer use it (I don't use high res at all so everything was 44.1/16) and switched to Devialet Air from Roon.
This issue disappeared (touching wood it does not come back) and the only change I can identify is the regular security updates of softwares and OS running on my Mac. I did zero other change on the D220, nor the network, nor the Mac itself.

Last but not least, my network is constituted of an ADSL Modem which also serves as router, DHCP server and WiFi AP1. I also have a WiFI AP2 which is used to connect the Mac. I use PLC between all AP1 and the D220 is also directly connected through PLC.
I usually control Roon from my iPad which is connected to AP1. From times to times, my iPad Roon remote looses access to the Roon Core... but if I switch the iPad from AP1 to AP2 (the same as where the Roon Core on the Mac is connected) most of the time it recovers access. Once access have been recovered, 9 times out of ten I can switch back the iPad to AP1....

This to say that Roon protocols appear not to be as robust to perturbations as we think they would and the interactions can really be hairy...

[David A]

I don't know what is the root cause, but I can confirm that it is likely to be a hairy combination of factors.

I had occasional stopping of Raat (just hitting play again was resolving the issue) perhaps once every two days... I was blaming Roon, my D220ci... until my company stoped using Symantec Endpoint Protection as an antivirus and security enforcement tool and switched to Microsoft Defender ATP.
Suddenly, no more drops....

Similarly, a couple of 3 or 4 month ago, I started to have the 'slow loading file' issue with Roon Raat, to the point that I could no longer use it (I don't use high res at all so everything was 44.1/16) and switched to Devialet Air from Roon.
This issue disappeared (touching wood it does not come back) and the only change I can identify is the regular security updates of softwares and OS running on my Mac. I did zero other change on the D220, nor the network, nor the Mac itself.

Last but not least, my network is constituted of an ADSL Modem which also serves as router, DHCP server and WiFi AP1. I also have a WiFI AP2 which is used to connect the Mac. I use PLC between all AP1 and the D220 is also directly connected through PLC.
I usually control Roon from my iPad which is connected to AP1. From times to times, my iPad Roon remote looses access to the Roon Core... but if I switch the iPad from AP1 to AP2 (the same as where the Roon Core on the Mac is connected) most of the time it recovers access. Once access have been recovered, 9 times out of ten I can switch back the iPad to AP1....

This to say that Roon protocols appear not to be as robust to perturbations as we think they would and the interactions can really be hairy...

@Jean-Marie,

I'm unconvinced that your conclusion, "Roon protocols appear not to be as robust to perturbations as we think they would and the interactions can really be hair" is a conclusion that can be logically drawn from your account of the issues you have experienced. I accept that networking issues can be complicated and that interactions can be a problem but I see problems with your reasoning on this occasion.

You've described 3 different issues you've experienced and I'll deal with the issues I see in turn:

1- RAAT occasionally stopping, fixed with change of antivirus software: You haven't mentioned whether, while you were experiencing this problem,  you tried using AIR instead of RAAT and whether the problem also occurred with AIR. AIR isn't a Roon protocol, it's a Devialet protocol, and if the problem also occurred with AIR then that would suggest that the problem wasn't due to the robustness of Roon protocols but rather to your original antivirus software causing a more general network problem. If you didn't try to see whether AIR solved this problem then, without any evidence that the problem occurred with RAAT but not with any other non-Roon protocol, you've got no evidence to support a view that the problem was related to a Roon protocol rather than being a general networking problem related to the antivirus software.

2- the "audio file loading slowly" problem with RAAT - you say the problem disappeared when you changed to streaming with AIR but you attribute the disappearance of the problem to a change in the regular security updates on your Mac. Changing to AIR has been recognised as one of the ways to avoid the audio file loading slowly problem right from the start and is one of the options recommended by Devialet themselves. I would suggest that it was the change to AIR which solved this problem for you but that still leaves the question of whether this problem is related to something in Roon's software or something in Devialet's. Roon said fairly soon after people started reporting the problem that the cause wasn't in their software. Devialet took much longer to acknowledge that there was a problem but when they did, they never suggested that the issue lay with Roon's software. Their current FW release claims to deliver improvements to streaming with RAAT and makes no other comment. If there was an issue which Devialet felt needed to be fixed by Roon I think they would have mentioned it. Given that Devialet have been working on the problem, and hopefully are still working on it since they haven't said it's fixed, and haven't said that there are any issues with Roon's software, I think it's reasonable to assume that Devialet believe the problem lies in their own software and has nothing to do with the robustness of Roon's protocol. After the length of time this issue has been around, I would think Devialet would have said there was an issue at the Roon end if they believed that to be the case.

3-the problem with the Roon app on your iPad losing connection to your Roon core. You're fixing this with a change to your network connection for the iPad. How can you be sure that the problem isn't an iPad network connection problem rather than a Roon-related problem?

Back when the "audio file loading slowly" problem first started to be reported soon after the February 2019 update which gave us RAAT capability, I was of the opinion that the issue was caused by a combination of factors including network hardware interactions, an opinion not too dissimilar from your position here. 22 months later my opinion has changed about the "audio file loading slowly" problem. It has not been reported as affecting any Roon Ready endpoints other than our Devialet's and I think that if the problem was due in part to something in Roon's protocol or software, or to network hardware or the interaction of other software such as antivirus software or software updates, then non-Devialet users would also be reporting the problem because they have all of the software and hardware variations that you can find amongst Devialet users. When the only consistent factors amongst people reporting this problem are the use of a Devialet and high res files then, given non-Devialet users also stream high res files but don't report problems with them, the only relevant factor appears to be the Devialet. That in itself seems to suggest that the RAAT protocol is quite robust because it's working reliably on a number of different computer platforms streaming data at all resolutions including high resolutions and even streaming multi-channel high resolution streams to a large number of other Roon Ready endpoints without problems. I would think that if RAAT was a less robust protocol than Roon suggest, people with Roon Ready endpoints other than Devialet's would surely be experiencing the same problems as we have been.

It took me many months to come to the conclusion that the audio file loading slowly problem was a Devialet problem but I eventually came to that conclusion and, try as I might, I am unable to find anything which indicates that it isn't simply a Devialet problem.

I may be wrong, the cause of the problem may not lie entirely with Devialet, and you may be right in believing that there's a more complex set of issues and interactions at the cause of the problem than just an issue with Devialet's software but I don't believe you have presented any evidence that clearly points to anything other than a Devialet software issue being the cause of the issues you've listed, or anything which suggests that the RAAT protocol isn't robust.

[baddog]

That must explain why I never had an issue as I have been using ROON ROCK on an Intel NUC for several years now. How odd, eh? Glad it is finally working for you @mdconnelly !

[mdconnelly]

That must explain why I never had an issue as I have been using ROON ROCK on an Intel NUC for several years now. How odd, eh? Glad it is finally working for you @mdconnelly !

Sure wish I had realized this way back when.    But this does raise an interesting question.... does this now make it a problem with Roon on Windows or is it still uniquely a Devialet problem?   I will say that I only experienced dropouts from Roon on Win10 to my Expert Pro.  Never to other endpoints in my home.   

Is there anyone out there using Windows on a NUC streaming hi-res music over gigabit ethernet to their Expert Pros via RAAT?    If so, do you get the occasional dropouts/stuttering?

[David A]

That must explain why I never had an issue as I have been using ROON ROCK on an Intel NUC for several years now. How odd, eh? Glad it is finally working for you @mdconnelly !

Sure wish I had realized this way back when.    But this does raise an interesting question.... does this now make it a problem with Roon on Windows or is it still uniquely a Devialet problem?   I will say that I only experienced dropouts from Roon on Win10 to my Expert Pro.  Never to other endpoints in my home.   

Is there anyone out there using Windows on a NUC streaming hi-res music over gigabit ethernet to their Expert Pros via RAAT?    If so, do you get the occasional dropouts/stuttering?

My understanding is that there is only one "flavour" of RAAT, in other words Roon sends the same identical signal to all Roon Ready end points. It is up to the end point to handle that input signal properly which is what the Roon Ready certification process is designed to ensure. If you can stream successfully to other endpoints from Roon on a Win 10 machine then the problem isn't with Roon because a problem in Roon would affect all endpoints. It's probably not a problem with Win 10 because you would expect that to cause problems with at least some other devices down stream as well, and the same applies to the possibility of it being a router or other network hardware issue. If the problem is somewhere between Roon and the endpoint then you would expect that more than one endpoint would be susceptible to it. If the problem occurs for only one endpoint, and here I'm talking about not only for a single user but with that specific endpoint for all users, then I think that's a pretty clear indication that the problem is something to do with that endpoint.

Take a look at the Roon forums. Roon users are running Roon on Windows, Macs, and Linux boxes and on some NAS drives. They're using a variety of network peripherals and you have people using those peripherals with different computers/NAS drives. You've got them using RAAT with a large number of different endpoints from different manufacturers. The only users reporting the "audio file loading slowly" problem with the symptoms that affected us Devialet users were Devialet users. If the problem was located somewhere other than in the Devialet, then at least some other users than Devialet users should have been experiencing it. If, for example, it had something to do with Windows, then at least some other Windows users than those with Devialet's should have reported experiencing it. There don't appear to be any such reports.

Logically, if this issue only affects those with Devialets then the problem has to be a Devialet problem.

[mdconnelly]

I agree that the issue fully resides with Devialet - or at least did when we were getting the 'Audio loading slowly...'. But when the dropouts stopped because I switched from Roon on Win 10 to ROCK/NUC, it gave me pause. To be honest, I have seen a number of reports in the Roon forums of non-Devialet owners having dropouts. It would be interesting to see what those experiencing dropouts are using for Roon Core and, more significantly, if the dropouts went away if they switched to ROCK.

Hey, I have no insight on this and am just postulating. I don't want to let Devialet off the hook, but it's certainly a path of investigation that they should follow. I have reported this in detail to them but whether they pursue it is another thing.

[bernardl]

I had pretty frequent drop outs with Raat using the latest firmware on the D1000 and a Melco S10 with the Devialet connected to a 100 mbit port. A configuration that was supposed to be working.

I changed 2 things last week:
- I upgraded Roon to the latest version,
- I moved my music library from a USB external OWC + Samsung SSD to my Synology 1817 NAS located on a different floor.

I have not experienced the slightest drop out since then, many hours past the usual frequency of occurrence.

So either there was an issue with my USB drive or Roon fixed something.

In the meantime I have replaced my Mac mini by a super optimized Mojo Audio DejaVu EVO Linux music server and things sound even better... and still zero dropout with the NAS as storage.