Performance of different streaming solutions

[docvale]

Hey everybody,

I found some time to start experimenting with the goal to look for some performance improvements.
My standard setup is the following:
Music Library in HDD -> USB connected to Airport Extreme -> ethernet cabled to Node 2i -> coaxial SPDIF into Expert 120
Overall, I like the sound a lot and my pleasure volume setting is at -20.

As curiosity is tough to curb, I activated the trial for Roon. Despite the Expert 120 is not Roon Ready, it is Roon Tested and got immediately recognized by the software.
The setup is the following:
Roon running on Macbook Pro with Big Sur -> browsing the same Music Library in HDD -> USB connected to Airport Extreme -> ethernet cabled to Expert 120
Obviously, I ran my comparisons at the very same volume level.

My findings:
- it might be the habit, but I prefer the simplicity of the BluOS interface to Roon's for cosmetics
- I love the fact that Roon, using its Air implementation, allows to control the volume of the Expert
- I hate the fact that Roon requires me to have my laptop active
- I'm intrigued by the fact that Roon allows me to stream via ethernet, which, I assume, should be the less jitter-prone input of the Expert
- I'm not intrigued by the fact that Roon would come at a cost

I'm going to run further tests, yet I was not able to discriminate differences so far. I have run a series of A/B/A/B/A/B comparison and, up to now, any time I assumed something differed (once it might have been more depth, another a difference in the bass contour) I was promptly proven wrong by going in back to the Node.

So, to my ears and my commodities:
- if the ethernet connection had some superiority over coaxial, in my system this does not become easily apparent
- picking Roon would mean the commodity of a single app to browse and control volume, but the lack of commodity of keeping my laptop out of the equation 
- Roon does not support Amazon Music (which I use quite often) nor Spotify (which I could consider to use), so that's another shortcoming
- Roon might warrant, instead, a better development over time
- Roon allows you to play with DSP (which I have not touched yet)

So, has anyone tried a similar comparison? If yes, what bought you into Roon? Moving from a "normal" computer to Nucleus came to sonic benefits?

[David A]

I think you'll find a lot of different answers to your questions simply because many, perhaps most, of us here using Roon came to Roon from some other setup. There's a lot of other setups available for us to have come from, and a lot of different setups involving Roon for us to be using.

In my case I started out streaming my own files from my Mac Mini desktop using iTunes and Devialet's AIR app running on the Mac. WiFi was problematic for me, my Expert Pro 130 (pre CI board) had problems maintaining a reliable WiFi connection so in the end I put a second Airport Extreme near the Devialet and connected it to the Devialet via ethernet. That worked better. When Roon incorporated Devialet's AIR protocol into its options I moved my files to an Antipodes server connected to my network and the Devialet via an ethernet switch. The Antipodes ran Roon's server software but required another device running Roon Remote for control and I ran Roon Remote on my iPad. That meant the Mac didn't have to be running. I just needed the network to be running along with the Antipodes, Devialet, and iPad. Eventually I replaced the Antipodes with a Roon Nucleus Plus because the Celeron processor in the Antipodes wasn't optimum for the demands of Roon Server. When I got the CI board upgrade for my Expert Pro, I kept using the same hardware but I stopped using Roon's AIR implementation and swapped to RAAT. I'm extremely happy with that setup. I've tried connecting both the Antipodes and the Nucleus Plus to the Devialet via USB but I preferred the ethernet connection in both cases. I didn't try a coaxial connection from the Antipodes to the Devialet and the Nucleus Plus doesn't offer a coaxial output.

Re your findings:

- control interfaces are definitely an area where personal preference reigns. An interface that doesn't let you do what you want to do isn't a suitable option but there are a lot of interfaces which will let you do what you want and then factors like how they present their options and what you think of the cosmetics of the interface are what counts then and personal preferences play a major part in what you think of them.

- any interface which allows you to control the volume of the Devialet as well as music playback is better than one which doesn't allow you to control volume in my view.

- we're talking about computer audio here. That means a server app of some kind to control the delivery of music from a drive somewhere to the Devialet plus a control app of some kind which you use to tell the server what to do. Sometimes the server and the control software are contained in the same app. iTunes performed both functions for me originally and the Roon app running on a Mac or Windows computer can do both also. In my case both the Antipodes and the Nucleus Plus run Roon Server software but not the control software. You can either use the Roon software on a Mac or Windows computer to perform control functions as well or you can use Roon Remote software on a phone or tablet connected to your network for control purposes but you can't run the Roon server software on a phone or tablet, it has to be running on a computer somewhere on your network. If the Roon server software is running on your laptop then the laptop has to be active. If you're running the Roon server software on a separate server such as an Antipodes, Innuos, or Nucleus then you could run the control app on a laptop or a phone or tablet and, provided your laptop isn't running the Roon server functions you would not need to have the laptop active. I don't know whether you can run Roon server software on the Node 2i but I suspect not because it isn't running an operating system which the Roon app can run on (Roon server runs on the Mac, Windows, and Linux operating systems and on NAS devices from a couple of manufacturers).

- ethernet should be less jitter-prone than a coaxial connection.

- yes, Roon comes at a cost. There are server and control software apps that are freeware but you would have to determine for yourself whether the server app can run on the Node 2i. If they don't and they need to run on a computer you're going to be stuck running that software on your laptop and you would need to determine whether any alternative app you're considering can access your music files on the Node 2i. What you could look for instead is if there are any apps available for your phone and/or tablet which can control the Node 2i directly. If there is such an app you would not need to have your laptop active unless you're storing your music files on the laptop.

- when it comes to accessing different streaming services I'm not certain if there is any third party software which supports all of the streaming services available plus serving files from your Node 2i as well.

When it comes to accessing services such as Amazon Music and Spotify plus files from your Node 2i, I would suggest that you ask questions on a forum for the Node and other BlueOS devices to see what other users of BlueOS devices are using. You're right that Roon doesn't support them and neither does your Devialet. Since you have a Node I t think you would be far more likely to be able to get information in relation to that issue by asking on a forum for other BlueOS users because there's probably more chance of finding someone who has come across such options there though there may be someone here using a Node who can help. I just think that there would be more such users on a Node forum than on this forum, especially since Devialet seems to have adopted Roon as it's music server software of choice.

As to your final question, moving from using iTunes on my Mac to a separate server certainly came with sonic benefits but a lot of them were to do with more reliable connections which weren't plagued with the WiFi issues I originally had. There have been other benefits but they relate to aspects such as USB vs ethernet or AIR vs RAAT in my case and while I've personally come down on the ethernet and RAAT side on those questions there are others who prefer USB or ethernet/AIR for their connection to the Devialet and a lot of us are using supplementary devices between our servers and our Devialet's as well. Connection paths between server and Devialet can get quite a deal more complex once you decide that you want to try and improve the quality of the connection but that's another rabbit hole it's easy to go down with plenty of its own cans of worms :-(

I hope the above comments help and haven't raised too many more questions for you.

[docvale]

Hi David,

Always a pleasure to read your messages.
I get it, for most of you guys the path has been more organically distributed along a timeline that was characterized by bugs, glitches and other annoyances that are now gone, while I essentially popped onto this user experience all at once and, importantly, using a previous generation of Devialet.

I totally agree with the fact that, even in the absence of sonic performance improvements, switching from a problematic interface to a well thought one can be worth an investment.
Since you touched base with that:
- I know that habits are a bottleneck to go through. I like BluOS as I'm used to it. With Roon, I have to learn (I expressed myself wrong: with cosmetic, I didn't really mean how pretty the window looks: rather, I was referring to the spatial layout)
- BluOS allows me to do 100% of what I need (including using Amazon Music or Spotify, Radio Paradise, local and international radios) with the limitation of not sending music to the Devialet via ethernet or USB nor to control the Expert's volume in app. My Node works, essentially, as a digital transport with streamer abilities
- in case of a switch to Roon, the Node would go. I could use Roon to drive the Node, but I'd see no point. I would still have the limitations of above
- I indeed think that Roon would be more functional if installed on a dedicated machine, like the ones you mentioned, or even maybe a Mac Mini purchased ad hoc. Definitely not the laptop I use for everything else

I will be honest. I was looking for some sonic upgrade so that I could have considered Roon and justified the expense. Selling the Node I would have partially covered the costs of the long term Roon license and with a wiped out, second-hand Mac Mini I could have built a server without breaking the bank. At the moment, though, I'd most likely channel the extra money that this project would have costed towards other areas (a better cartridge for record playing, for example).
But I'll continue to test for the duration of my trial

[Delija]

My problem is the fact that UPnP sounds better to me when used with local music collection. It has somewhat better dynamics, transparency, resolution. With Roon - sound is sligtly "rounded" and smoothed out. The difference is subtle, so all other very good aspects of Roon will prevail for many.

And that's not just my opinion - I have a number of friends who share my opinion with various devices: Esoteric, Lumin, Linn...

I've used Roon and UPnP in parallel for about three months and than went back to UPnP. Now I'm thinking again about the Roon - since I want to slowly introduce my better half into Hi-Fi and Roon seems to be perfect for that.


Note: When I say UPnP, I'm talking about CI and internal UPnP renderer. As server and controller I use MinimServer (and BubbleUPnP server for Tidal/Qobuz transcoding to WAV) and BubbleUPnP Android app.

[docvale]

today was not a satisfactory testing day.
Within a couple of hours of use, Roon decided to stop 3 times and "popped" at least twice...

[Snoopy8]

My problem is the fact that UPnP sounds better to me when used with local music collection.

I agree.  I trialed Roon a few years ago, but SQ was not as good as UPnP (using MinimServer and BubbleUPnP app).  I have personally heard, and confirmed with a number of people, that a native music player app is better than Roon. However, Roon is attractive for many people.

today was not a satisfactory testing day.
Within a couple of hours of use, Roon decided to stop 3 times and "popped" at least twice...

Roon can be CPU intensive and I suspect your box could not keep up.
---

I like BluOS and I can understand why you are reluctant to move away from it.  However, the Node is only an entry streamer and streamers do affect the SQ.  Premium streamers have better power supplies, better clocks and a better chassis. But like everything Hifi, there will be people who will dispute this.

Also, you can improve the Ethernet performance with better switches and cables, but this is even more controversial.

At the end of the day, you have to decide what works for you...

[Confused]

I like the way @David A started off by stating "I think you'll find a lot of different answers to your questions", because I think he is absolutely right on this one.

I with my previous D240/D250/D800 (Pre Pro), I tried many things via Ethernet, USB, S/PDIF. First to say that I was always happy with the sound quality via Ethernet, although in the early days of AIR this was far from trouble free. I never found anything that I preferred via USB, it was always a touch softer and lost something to my ears, but refer to the opening statement here, I know that there are some that will disagree with this.

For me, the very best results I have obtained from either the early models or the Pro have been via AES/EBU (S/PDIF). David mentions above that ethernet should be less jitter-prone than a coaxial connection. He is right of course, essentially with Ethernet any concerns regarding jitter from the source is eliminated. It is not quite that simple though I think. What I have found is that via AES/EBU / S/PDIF, the source really matters. The end result is that with a not so good source, feeding the Devialet via S/PDIF will provide inferior results versus pretty much anything via Ethernet. But with a very good AES/EBU source, it is possible to get better results than Ethernet. In the early days of the Expert range there were quite a few of us on this forum feeding the Expert with a Mutec MC3+USB, and getting results that sounded better, and were a lot more stable than AIR Ethernet.

So to my ears at least, S/PDIF or AES/EBU is the way to go, but you do need a decent source. Yes, jitter from the source becomes an issue here. With S/PDIF the source actually provides the audio clock that needs to be extracted by the receiving device. But get a source that performs well in this regard and decent sound should result.

Did anyone mention rabbit holes?

Writing this makes me think about the iFi Zen Stream that I mentioned in another thread. The measurements of this device indicate that it has very low noise and jitter. So far I have only listened to the thing via my Mutec MC3+USB / REF10. Maybe it will perform decently feeding the Devialet direct? When I get some time I'll give this a try.

As for Roon, I use Roon for a number of reasons. Some aspects of it I like, other aspects annoy me greatly. I terms of sound quality, I do prefer Roon + HQPlayer for Ethernet streaming, although this becomes an easier option if you have a HQPlayer / NAA type endpoint, with a Devialet alone RAAT or Roon integrated AIR are the only practical options.

One last observation. About a year and a half ago I changed from a fairly basic PC to a far more powerful i9900K machine with Nvidia graphics and all the rest of it. For a while I had both machines set up, and I could easily switch from streaming from the old PC or the new. Would the more powerful machine sound better, or perhaps worse as it is more complex and electrically noisy device? Both machines were running HQPlayer, so the playback software was identical, between the two I could not discern any difference whatsoever.

EDIT: I have just noticed that the OP mentions Roon's DSP capabilities. Recently I have started running Focus Fidelity Filter Designer convolutions in Roon. Getting this set up and working correctly is not the easiest of things, just getting the measurements done correctly is full of perils, but for me the end result is superb, far exceeding the kind of improvements you might get from one source or another. This kind of thing will be very system and room dependent, but I could not be more pleased with the improvement it has made in my case.

[docvale]

Interesting readings!

@Snoopy8
My laptop is quite powerful (2.8 GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i7 - 16GB RAM - 1GB SSD), yet it is also running other apps (even if during playback I was just on Safari).
I agree with the controversial monicker of the investment on the ethernet network setup with switches and similar: I have just collected some disappointment on the purchase of a highly celebrated power cable, so I'm not ready to jump into the rabbit hole.

@Delija
Unfortunately my Expert does not support UPnP, so I cannot test that approach.

@Confused
Having a 1xx level machine, my Expert does not have the AES/EBU input, so I use the coaxial SPDIF. Also, I would not own a machine that would work as a streaming transport with an AES/EBU output. But I get your point: there's different roads with their own perks and advantages.
Your system is way way more complex and expensive than mine, so in my case the digital stage optimization you achieved with re-clockers would be quite overkill.

My take-home message is that I might not be ready to switch to Roon. My current setup would not allow the kind of sonic and user benefits I'd looks for, which might arrive only upon a more generous money investment with a dedicated server-streamer.
I've just "discovered" that Innuos has released a platform (InnuOS, with lots of fantasy) and I was shocked that entering the Innuos world would have a cost that is not distant from a lifetime Roon + a dedicated Mac mini or similar servers.
I guess that reports on the quality and convenience of the InnuOS would pop quickly on the web.

[Delija]

today was not a satisfactory testing day.
Within a couple of hours of use, Roon decided to stop 3 times and "popped" at least twice...

Have you tried to limit Devialet connection to 100 Mbit/s?

[docvale]

today was not a satisfactory testing day.
Within a couple of hours of use, Roon decided to stop 3 times and "popped" at least twice...

Have you tried to limit Devialet connection to 100 Mbit/s?

Nope... I actually don't even know how to do it. Is it a configurator option?