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(11-Jul-2015, 09:04)Confused Wrote: 750 watts into a normal speaker is indeed a lot! I used to have a 1kw amplifier (for professional use, not hifi) and this thing had two fans at the front and two at the back for air cooling. However, I am a little unsure what the "watt" ratings actually mean. Is a silver Phantom really 3.75 times more powerful than a D800? It would be interesting to know the "real" specification of the Phantom amps, but I guess the HBI bass system make such comparisons a little meaningless outside of use in the actual Phantom? Although I think it is a fair assumption that the Silver Phantom amps are nowhere near 3000w RMS into 8 ohms!
These are "Peak" power output numbers. I don't know if you remember, but back in the 90s, Sony, Kenwood, Pioneer, Aiwa and all got into a "power war" and started one-upping each other on the PMPO numbers (Peak Music Power Output). The numbers got outrageous: 400w PMPO... 750w PMPO... 1000w(!) PMPO... 2000w(!!!) PMPO... 4000w PMPO! I swear, I remember someone selling a 10,000w PMPO stereo system.
These were (2x tape deck, CD changer, radio, aux, 2 speakers) and were everywhere you now see sound bars in. When the numbers stopped making sense, there was enough of a crowd to ask "wtf?!". That's when education around power numbers came about and the idea of RMS (Root Mean Square) got popularized in consumer markets: the power output as we know it today. PMPO touters went red in the face and you could very clearly see the progression of these bright yellow stickers: PMPO in 30pt font, PMPO in 40pt font, PMPO in 50pt font+RMS in 8pt font, PMPO in 30 pt font+RMS in 15pt font, and so on and so forth till PMPO was just phased out. It left a sour taste in consumers' minds as a cheap and despicable move on part of the manufacturers. I'm honestly shocked that Devialet has chosen to bring back this value, since it was pushed into oblivion!
tl;dr: No, a Silver Phantom is not 3.75 times as powerful as a D800 
Devialet 1000Pro CI + Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor M
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hehe I read someone called it "wallmart-watts".
Those "peak" values are something you can still read written on cheap ebay car stereo amplifiers.
Don't know what went into devialets marketing. Most of their marketing claims made up for the phantoms are hilarious.
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(14-Jul-2015, 00:40)absolutk Wrote: (11-Jul-2015, 09:04)Confused Wrote: 750 watts into a normal speaker is indeed a lot! I used to have a 1kw amplifier (for professional use, not hifi) and this thing had two fans at the front and two at the back for air cooling. However, I am a little unsure what the "watt" ratings actually mean. Is a silver Phantom really 3.75 times more powerful than a D800? It would be interesting to know the "real" specification of the Phantom amps, but I guess the HBI bass system make such comparisons a little meaningless outside of use in the actual Phantom? Although I think it is a fair assumption that the Silver Phantom amps are nowhere near 3000w RMS into 8 ohms!
These are "Peak" power output numbers. I don't know if you remember, but back in the 90s, Sony, Kenwood, Pioneer, Aiwa and all got into a "power war" and started one-upping each other on the PMPO numbers (Peak Music Power Output). The numbers got outrageous: 400w PMPO... 750w PMPO... 1000w(!) PMPO... 2000w(!!!) PMPO... 4000w PMPO! I swear, I remember someone selling a 10,000w PMPO stereo system.
These were (2x tape deck, CD changer, radio, aux, 2 speakers) and were everywhere you now see sound bars in. When the numbers stopped making sense, there was enough of a crowd to ask "wtf?!". That's when education around power numbers came about and the idea of RMS (Root Mean Square) got popularized in consumer markets: the power output as we know it today. PMPO touters went red in the face and you could very clearly see the progression of these bright yellow stickers: PMPO in 30pt font, PMPO in 40pt font, PMPO in 50pt font+RMS in 8pt font, PMPO in 30 pt font+RMS in 15pt font, and so on and so forth till PMPO was just phased out. It left a sour taste in consumers' minds as a cheap and despicable move on part of the manufacturers. I'm honestly shocked that Devialet has chosen to bring back this value, since it was pushed into oblivion!
tl;dr: No, a Silver Phantom is not 3.75 times as powerful as a D800
Well that begs the question, what is the real power of the Phantoms. Also can you verify that the claimed figures are not RMS figures?
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(14-Jul-2015, 07:00)stonedragon Wrote: Well that begs the question, what is the real power of the Phantoms. Also can you verify that the claimed figures are not RMS figures?
I cannot prove that they are not RMS value, but can point to indicators that they most likely aren't.
1.) Everywhere that Devialet has advertised the power, they have used the work "peak".
2.) Peak and Root Mean Square, by mathematical definition, are different, and cannot mean the same thing.
3.) Merely the heat dissipation of the standard Expert amps makes it difficult to see how they'd dissipate so much more given the size of the Phantom.
Either way, we are none the wiser about their continuous/RMS power figures.
However, I'm surely waiting for the Intelligent Branches to work with the Evolving Phantoms. Who knows, they might give birth to little baby Phantoms.
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I seem to recall that the general rule of thumb was RMS was half that of peak power output. I think Devialet need to change their advertising before they become a laughing stock. They ain't a thousand times better than any speaker I own or have owned. If they give the hifi rags the ammunition to take the pee they will.
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As a matter of fact, Devialet's marketing likes punching headlines: 3000W, 0 Distortion, 0 Souffe etc... but...
- we had sorted out that they need 3000W to reach 105dBSPL (as well as 750W to get a 99dBSPL) which imo is the interesting figure (105dbSPL beeing used by legislator for discos and for me a perceptible power-value)
- they do mention 3000W peak in their white paper for Phantom
- they do mention 3000W peak as well in the specs of LE 120/200/400/800
Since Experts are Amplifier and Phantoms Speaker & Amplifier I'm not sure the comparaison is usefull anyway... neither with other only-speakers.
As advertising-logic goes, they can claim phantoms are 1000 times better than most speakers.... since they are DAC amplifier as well 
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99dbSPL and 105dbSPL is also peak I think?
Also incomplete data.
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FWIW - PMPO was generally reckoned to be about 6 times the equivalent RMS figure. One point to note, if a Phantom really was 3000w RMS, it would need to draw far more than 3000w from the mains, which would trip a domestic mains supply unless you wired it into a dedicate cooker spur or similar. It looks like the power supply can pull a peak of 3000w from the mains, but what this means in actual RMS terms is not clear, it is a similar to the power draw from an "Expert" amp, which at least hints that there is quite a lot of power somewhere. Plus, 105dB(a) SPL, is more that enough in a normal sized room. (unless you are slightly bonkers)
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14-Jul-2015, 13:29
(This post was last modified: 14-Jul-2015, 13:30 by JohnnySix.)
Anyone who can go beyond 99dB - or even close - must either be living in a country mansion, or hates their neighbours. I don't dare turn my White Phantoms beyond their 40 setting, or else it becomes audible beyond the boundaries of my garden (even with closed double-glazed windows). Silver Phantoms only necessary if you intend entering loudness wars with some other nearby nutter!
JRiver v25 (Windows) >> 220Pro/CI >> PMC Twenty5.23 + twin KEF KC62 subs. One White Phantom.
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They are really loud indeed. I never dared to push my whites over 70. That's why I was wondering why Devialet developed an even louder silver one if they claim the quality is equal (probably they were cought in their marketing spinning, as "better than best" could'nt exist). Since we know now that they had the white first (see HiFi Choice), I can't really see what "plus" in terms of trade they are expecting. Not sure silver owners wouldn't have bought any phantom if they would have no choice but to have "only" 99dB (peak).
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