Power direct from the wall, or Power Conditioner?

[f1eng]

there are 2 types of power conditioners. One is only trying to clean the AC, the other tries to improve the current delivery capabilities.
e.g. the Audioquest Niagaras can deliver up to 80A for a few ms, the big Accuphase can do the same. PS-Audio can also deliver much more current that the wall plug (only 10/20A).
Also these devices can provide the power much faster. Epecially a switching PS can benefit from this additional power. Transients are reproduced much better .
And yes, theoretically a very good linear PS should not benefit from a power conditioner, but still a lot of them actually do.
Also a power conditioner without very good power cords can we a waste of money.

Here in the Uk we have 240 volts and 13 amp fuses.
That means there is 3120 watts of power available. Why anybody would imagine that that is insufficient for any part of the hifi, even without any reservoir capacitance, is a mystery to me.
I suppose good marketing to people who aren't technically minded combined with the placebo effect/ expectation bias may do it

[Stino]

there are 2 types of power conditioners. One is only trying to clean the AC, the other tries to improve the current delivery capabilities.
e.g. the Audioquest Niagaras can deliver up to 80A for a few ms, the big Accuphase can do the same. PS-Audio can also deliver much more current that the wall plug (only 10/20A).
Also these devices can provide the power much faster. Epecially a switching PS can benefit from this additional power. Transients are reproduced much better .
And yes, theoretically a very good linear PS should not benefit from a power conditioner, but still a lot of them actually do.
Also a power conditioner without very good power cords can we a waste of money.

Here in the Uk we have 240 volts and 13 amp fuses.
That means there is 3120 watts of power available. Why anybody would imagine that that is insufficient for any part of the hifi, even without any reservoir capacitance, is a mystery to me.
I suppose good marketing to people who aren't technically minded combined with the placebo effect/ expectation bias may do it

Exactly. I'm often amused seeing these kind of discussions where not the right expertise is around the table. 

At home i have a dedicated line and i notice no difference when trying the lower end Niagara (1200). Also, when putting some noise on the line as Pim suggested: no difference...

What David says about not proving anything: this is the best test imo. You make noise on the line in the sense of (trying to) making sure it is there, and if then nothing happens in sound quality... voila!

[Vivialet]

I don‘t need expertise, I have ears.
Of course you only need a few watts in average, but still your amp may try to draw 10000W for some ms...even for normal volume.
A car can also drive with 50HP, but for ultimate acceleration it can not have enough power...

[f1eng]

 but still your amp may try to draw 10000W for some ms...even for normal volume.

No it won't.
Where did you get such an amazingly bizarre idea from?

[Vivialet]

only a guess. The Audioquest Niagara 5000 or the PS-Audio P20 can deliver up to 80A for a very short time.
230V and 80A is 18400W per hour. Of course this high power output is only available for some ms.At least the Devialet with the switching PS sounds much better with the Audioquest, maybe because it does not have big capacitors and draws the current directly from the power line.
Thats is also the explanation from these companies. I cannot validate if this is really true or the reason for the impoved impulse reproduction, but makes sense somehow.
Even pro audio companies like Furman use this technique in their power conditioners btw.

[markush]

I really is true. Investing in a better power cable will improve sonic performance immediately and if you go for a Niagara 3000/5000 you will be in another league.

[Pim]

only a guess. The Audioquest Niagara 5000 or the PS-Audio P20 can deliver up to 80A for a very short time.
230V and 80A is 18400W per hour. Of course this high power output is only available for some ms.At least the Devialet with the switching PS sounds much better with the Audioquest, maybe because it does not have big capacitors and draws the current directly from the power line.
Thats is also the explanation from these companies. I cannot validate if this is really true or the reason for the impoved impulse reproduction, but makes sense somehow.
Even pro audio companies like Furman use this technique in their power conditioners btw.

I don't know what kind of music you play or what kind of speakers you have but 18400W is an insane amount of power for playing music. There's no power amp for home use that draws that kind of power. Not even for a few milli seconds. To give you some idea of how much power this is; my home connection (and probably many others) has been fused at 80 Ampere. I can run all my power tools, every light in the house, two ovens, an induction stove top, three air conditioners, fridges, freezers etc. and I still won't get anywhere near that kind of power use.

[Vivialet]

noone says that any hifi amp can use 18kw, except some PA systems maybe.
The average power consumption is maybe between 20 and some 100 watts per hour.
The question is how much energy is required for some impulse reproduction. 18kw means 5W per second, that is 0,005W in a ms.
1000 of these impulses per hour means you need 5W...
I think it is not about the power requirement over a long time but about how fast the energy can be delivered.
Cables and also a power system like the Niagara make a huge difference here, at least that is what I (and others) hear.

[thumb5]

...
The question is how much energy is required for some impulse reproduction. 18kw means 5W per second, that is 0,005W in a ms.
1000 of these impulses per hour means you need 5W...
I think it is not about the power requirement over a long time but about how fast the energy can be delivered.
...

Sorry to be pedantic, but a Watt is a measure of power which is the rate at which energy is being delivered/used (Joules per second).  18 kW means that you're delivering or using energy at a rate equivalent to several household ovens, or about eight or ten typical kettles all at once;  this would mean a current draw of 75 Amps from a 240 V mains system.  18 kW definitely doesn't mean "5W per second" or "0.005W in a millisecond" -- those phrases don't mean much unless you're talking about the rate at which a power usage is increasing or decreasing with time.

If I understand correctly, you're arguing is that although the continuous power requirement might be quite low, there may be a transient power requirement of up to 18 kW.  Needless to say this kind of power would have to be drawn only for a very short time to avoid damage to the equipment and/or blown fuses.  It's true in principle that an audio amplifier could draw power in a peaky rather than smooth manner, depending on its power supply design and the signal it's reproducing, but I must say I'm sceptical of this 18 kW figure unless it's come from an amplifier manufacturer or someone who's actually measured it.

[Vivialet]

this is exactly what I mean. The 18KW is what the Niagara 5000/7000 can deliver for some ms, this is surely a very extreme condition that you will not have in normal use. Instead of 18KW I should better say it can deliver 230V/80A instead of the 230V/10A.
As you said it is all about the transients. It would be interesting to know the max. ampere a Devialet can take...