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Problem with ROON
#11
What about the second bug - not showing loudspeaker details / SAM profile of speaker name.
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#12
(26-Dec-2021, 00:49)markush Wrote: What about the second bug - not showing loudspeaker details / SAM profile of speaker name.

See @Jean-Marie's reply at post 6. If you tap on the star symbol next to the SAM line in the audio path info you will see the SAM profile/speaker model in the added info window display that is presented. The info is provided but perhaps not in the way that you want it provided.

Any change in the way the profile/speaker name is displayed would have to be made by Roon but they would probably argue that there is no bug in relation to this point because they do provide the info if you choose to display it. I don't think there is a bug here. Roon made a choice on how and where they wish to display that piece of information and it just isn't how and where you expect to see it displayed. If I want to see that info it's always only a second tap away on the touch screen of my iPad but I've only got 1 pair of speakers in my system and I know that the  profile I have loaded in my configuration file is the profile for those speakers. I don't need to see what speakers and profile are in use in the signal path info because it's always the same info, it doesn't change. I can access it with an extra tap whenever I wish but the only time I've accessed it recently is just now to check whether it works for me like it does for Jean-Marie and it does. I have no need to check it again unless I either change my speakers and I want to make sure everthing iw working properly with the SAM profile for the new speakers or if I want to check whether everything is still working properly after a Roon update or a Devialet FW update.  Knowing what SAM profile is in use is not something you need to check unless you've changed your speakers or loaded a new configuration file. The rest of the time most of us know what it is because nothing has changed. The actual SAM level,  however, can change more frequently and that is always displayed in the signal path info apart from when SAM is set to 0%.
Roon Nucleus+, Devilalet Expert 140 Pro CI, Focal Sopra 2, PS Audio P12, Keces P8 LPS, Uptone Audio EtherREGEN with optical fibre link to my router, Shunyata Alpha NR and Sigma NR power cables, Shunyata Sigma ethernet cables, Shunyata Alpha V2 speaker cables, Grand Prix Audio Monaco rack, RealTRAPS acoustic treatment.

Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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#13
Thanks - will adapt the bug report.
Those also on ROON would be great to confirm the bug so that the team knows about that https://community.roonlabs.com/t/signal-...tly/183208
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#14
Another thing is if SAM really is a two part adjustment with constant phase and variable deep bass extension? If SAM is two part the Roon display is wrong. 0% does not indicate that SAM is off as the phase correction is still active.
If, on the other hand, SAM is actually off at 0% the Roon display is correct. Members at Devialet Chat 'know' that SAM has a constant phase and variable bass EQ. Is this another instance of Devialet's unwillingness to tell the facts? Like letting us live with the belief that Phantom could play 192kHz, but when RAAT came to Phantoms it was revealed that 48kHz was max and resampling took place.

I think I have seen a description of SAM from Devialet talking about constant phase and variable bass adjustment, but I am not sure. Does anyone know?
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#15
(26-Dec-2021, 12:00)ogs Wrote: Another thing is if SAM really is a two part adjustment with constant phase and variable deep bass extension? If SAM is two part the Roon display is wrong. 0% does not indicate that SAM is off as the phase correction is still active.
If, on the other hand, SAM is actually off at 0% the Roon display is correct. Members at Devialet Chat 'know' that SAM has a constant phase and variable bass EQ. Is this another instance of Devialet's unwillingness to tell the facts? Like letting us live with the belief that Phantom could play 192kHz, but when RAAT came to Phantoms it was revealed that 48kHz was max and resampling took place.

I think I have seen a description of SAM from Devialet talking about constant phase and variable bass adjustment, but I am not sure. Does anyone know?

Yes, you are correct: the phase alignement is active as soon as SAM is active, no matter the percentage which is just controlling how much bass extension SAM is creating for your speakers. 

So these are two distinct corrections. 

Jean-Marie
MacBook Air M2 -> RAAT/Air -> WiFi -> PLC -> Ethernet -> Devialet 220pro with Core Infinity (upgraded from 120) -> AperturA Armonia
France
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#16
@Jean-Marie,

You're definitely right that phase alignment is active whenever SAM is on, regardless of the setting. I believe there is actually some bass extension occurring even at 0% because I can remember reading somewhere in Floyd Toole's book on loudspeakers and room acoustics that simply correcting the phase performance of a speaker results in a bass extension of up to half an octave. I think that if Devialet had not associated a % with simply having SAM active, and then provided a numerical scale from 1 to 100, no zero setting and no mention of percentage to confuse things, to the range of additional bass adjustment/extension you could introduce, the operation of SAM would be better understood by users.

The fact that SAM is active at 0% should definitely be shown, it is digital signal processing so it should be revealed in the signal path information.

@markush ,

I'm going to be pedantic but if a bug is technically software failing to behave as it should then I don't think we actually have any bugs here.

When it comes to displaying SAM as active at 0% the problem could have 2 distinct causes. Either a Devialet programmer chose not to have Devialet firmware convey this specific piece of information to Roon in which case Devialet need to fix this because Roon can't display information it does not have, or Devialet are sending the information but a Roon programmer chose not to display it for some reason in which case Roon need to fix the issue. Either way Roon's software is doing what it was intended to do but, due to a programming choice by either Devialet or Roon, there is a failure to display information that should be displayed in the signal path display. Unfortunately it isn't clear whether this is due to a failure by Roon or by Devialet.

When it comes to the display of the SAM configuration in use then Roon are displaying the information but it requires an additional step to access it. Roon made a programming choice about how to display that information and it is being displayed as Roon intended but perhaps not as some users would wish it to be displayed. Personally I'm quite happy to leave this point as it is, the SAM configuration which is active at the time is something that doesn't change unless the user deliberately loads a new configuration so the user is always going to be aware of the active configuration, it's not something which needs to be always displayed in the signal path display. Having said that I would have no problems with Roon changing how they display this information so that it's always visible in the display but I think it's their decision as to whether they choose to do so or not given that the info is available to you if you want to see it. I don't think this needs to be addressed with the urgency usually given to bug fixes,. If the failure to display SAM as active at 0% is due to Roon receiving but choosing not to display this info, then I think it would be reasonable for Roon to change the display of the SAM profile, should they wish to do so, at the same time as they do the firmware update to show SAM as active. If Devialet need to update their firmware to give Roon the information that SAM is active at 0% then I think that any decision to change how the SAM configuration info is displayed is entirely up to Roon given that the user is aware of the information regardless of whether it is displayed or not and it is displayed if you choose to access it from the initial signal path display window.
Roon Nucleus+, Devilalet Expert 140 Pro CI, Focal Sopra 2, PS Audio P12, Keces P8 LPS, Uptone Audio EtherREGEN with optical fibre link to my router, Shunyata Alpha NR and Sigma NR power cables, Shunyata Sigma ethernet cables, Shunyata Alpha V2 speaker cables, Grand Prix Audio Monaco rack, RealTRAPS acoustic treatment.

Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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#17
(26-Dec-2021, 12:00)ogs Wrote: Another thing is if SAM really is a two part adjustment with constant phase and variable deep bass extension? If SAM is two part the Roon display is wrong. 0% does not indicate that SAM is off as the phase correction is still active.
If, on the other hand, SAM is actually off at 0% the Roon display is correct. Members at Devialet Chat 'know' that SAM has a constant phase and variable bass EQ. Is this another instance of Devialet's unwillingness to tell the facts? Like letting us live with the belief that Phantom could play 192kHz, but when RAAT came to Phantoms it was revealed that 48kHz was max and resampling took place.

I think I have seen a description of SAM from Devialet talking about constant phase and variable bass adjustment, but I am not sure. Does anyone know?


When SAM is ON and set to 0%, there are 3 corrections that are still being applied:
- Phase correction.
- Speaker protection.
- Cutting very low frequencies (below ~20 Hz).
So there is a DSP that is applied to the digital signal when SAM is ON and set to 0% and it would be good for Roon to show this.
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