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Quality of Power
#11
David A, if you had your time again, would you use an Alpha and a Sigma, or two of one or the other?
Also, where did you source your power cables (and your P12, for that matter!)
I recently moved my main system to a new room- the imaging is now utterly ethereal- amazing. Cant send where the speakers are at all, just images in space.
But now it seems to have lost a touch of detail, transparency and sounds a tiny bit electronic....
Kind regards,
David.
Shy
Currently: MacMini with Tidal, Qobuz Roon via RAAT / Cat7 Ethernet cable / Devialet 1000 Expert Pro CI (the BIG dogs!)/ Analysis Plus Oval 9 cable / Hyperion Audio 968 / Cheap cable to homemade, 12 inch powered subwoofers.
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#12
@ICUDoc .

I'm using the Sigma NR between the wall and the P12. I have 2 Alpha NRs, one to my 140 Pro from the P12 and the other to the Keces LPS which supplies my Roon Nucleus+ and the EtherREGEN. I think there's a benefit to having the power cable to a power conditioner being at least the same gauge as the heaviest gauge cable you have from the conditioner which is usually the cable you have to your amplifier. For a while I ran the system with one of the Alphas to the P12, the second to the 140 Pro, and a Shunyata Delta EF (no noise reduction filter) to the Keces. I had one of my stupid "what if…" moments one day and asked myself "what if I used an Alpha NR to the Keces?" so I swapped the Alpha feeding the P12 and the Delta feeding the Keces. I noticed that transients and loud passages didn't have quite the same impact which didn't surprise me but I thought everything else improved so I decided to get another Alpha NR but ended up with a Sigma NR instead. That's why I think that you shouldn't power a conditioner with a smaller gauge cable than the cable from the conditioner to your amp.

I got the P12 and cables from a local dealer, Brisbane HiFi.

Re your comment about having lost a bit of detail and transparency and gaining a bit of an electronic sound after moving your system to a new room, I'd suspect the cause to lie somewhere in your room acoustics and speaker/listening position setup. If nothing in the system has changed, then the change in sound could well be attributable to the change in room. I'd start looking at the differences between the old and new room, things such as more or less soft furnishings/carpets/etc, more or less exposed glass in windows/doors and/or hard reflective surfaces, speakers closer to or further from walls, listening position and the surfaces near it and so on to see whether you can find anything which might cause the change in sound and try and remedy that. It may not just be the nature of the difference, whether you have more or less of something, in the new room but also whether or not the difference is nearer to or further from the speakers and/or listening position. Also consider any asymmetries in the setup such as windows on one side of the room and not the other and so on. If your room has an open archway entrance, also consider what's outside the room. My room is carpeted but there are 2 archway entrances and the floors outside the room are ceramic tiled. I dealt with a touch of brightness by putting a woollen rug on the floor just outside each entrance. If you have open entrances into the room, things outside the room can also affect the sound you get because some of the sound leaving the room is likely to be reflected back into it from surfaces outside the room.

Another possibility for the change in sound is that the power point in the new room is on a different circuit to the power point in your previous room and the new circuit is noisier than the old one.
Roon Nucleus+, Devilalet Expert 140 Pro CI, Focal Sopra 2, PS Audio P12, Keces P8 LPS, Uptone Audio EtherREGEN with optical fibre link to my router, Shunyata Alpha NR and Sigma NR power cables, Shunyata Sigma ethernet cables, Shunyata Alpha V2 speaker cables, Grand Prix Audio Monaco rack, RealTRAPS acoustic treatment.

Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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#13
yes, the old one is a dedicated circuit- the new room shares the power ring with lots of stuff..
thanks, David A- this is why I asked about power conditioning...
Kind regards,
David.
Shy
Currently: MacMini with Tidal, Qobuz Roon via RAAT / Cat7 Ethernet cable / Devialet 1000 Expert Pro CI (the BIG dogs!)/ Analysis Plus Oval 9 cable / Hyperion Audio 968 / Cheap cable to homemade, 12 inch powered subwoofers.
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#14
Surely this has much to do with a lower level of ambient noise? It's a lot quieter at night in most places, easier to hear detail.
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#15
Ambient noise is background noise unrelated to your electricity supply. I'm retired and I live in a house in a suburb of my state's capital city. I listen during the day and I listen at night and yes, the ambient noise levels are different but the differ at several times of day. From around 7.00 pm to 7.30 am the next morning, ambient noise is low apart from the morning chorus of birds; there's little traffic and it's a quiet neighbourhood. Between some time after 3.00 pm and 7.00 pm, and again between about 7.30 am and 9.00 am there's traffic noise with people going to and coming home from work plus kids playing in the park a few doors down the road. Between 9.00 am and 3.00 pm it's fairly quiet again unless there's building work or something similar going on or people doing things like mowing lawns. The ambient noise pattern can be different in other areas but there's always a pattern to it and it's a pattern which changes slowly over time. If we're going to talk about differences in hearing detail because of changes in ambient noise, we're talking about changes with a couple of hours or more between one situation and the situation you're making a comparison to. Ambient noise is not a factor if people are talking about a difference that occurs between before and after they make a change in their system and the change only takes a couple of minutes to make at most. There is rarely a drastic change in ambient noise levels within a couple of minutes.

Add to that the fact that whatever power conditioners or power cables do, the one thing they definitely do not do is to change the level of ambient noise. If you say you hear a change when you're talking about the effect of a power conditioner or power cable on your system, you're most definitely not talking about a change that is due to changes in the ambient noise level.
Roon Nucleus+, Devilalet Expert 140 Pro CI, Focal Sopra 2, PS Audio P12, Keces P8 LPS, Uptone Audio EtherREGEN with optical fibre link to my router, Shunyata Alpha NR and Sigma NR power cables, Shunyata Sigma ethernet cables, Shunyata Alpha V2 speaker cables, Grand Prix Audio Monaco rack, RealTRAPS acoustic treatment.

Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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#16
(07-Sep-2020, 14:42)emulator Wrote: Surely this has much to do with a lower level of ambient noise? It's a lot quieter at night in most places, easier to hear detail.

The perception of sound quality does for sure depend on the environment.

We often speak about the room being the most impacting factor among those external to the system itself, but it's not the only one.

I would agree that you'll probably feel the sound is better if you listen in a quiet space as opposed to one that's noisy.

Cheers,
Bernard
Room: Gik Acoustics | Vibration: Townshend pods | Power: Shunyata Omega XC + Everest + Sigma NR v2 + Sigma ground cables | Source: Mojo Audio DejaVu EVO linux server running Roon core (Raat) | Ethernet: Sonore Optical module + Melco S10P with dedicated LPS + Shunyata Omega Ethernet x 2| Synchronous: Mutec MC-3 + USB (Paul Hynes SR7T LPS) + Cybershaft OP21A (Shunyata Omega USB, AES/EBU, clock cables) | Dac/Pre/Amplification: Devialet D1000 Pro CI (Chord Sarum T RCA-RCA link) | Speakers: Chord Sarum T cables + Wilson Benesch Act One Evolution P1
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#17
(22-Aug-2020, 00:06)David A Wrote: What you're describing is the result of noise on the power lines supplying power to your neighbourhood. Usually people find that their system sounds better in the evening after a lot of industry has shut down for the night, people have finished cooking their meals and eating/washing up, and the demand on the grid has dropped significantly.

You can't prevent the problem because the problem is caused by everyone on the grid, and while everyone else individually is making things a very little bit worse for you it's also true that your home is contributing a very little bit to making things worse for everyone else and a lot of people, each contributing a very little bit to a problem, end up making the problem bigger. Also, other electrical devices in your home are pumping noise into your household circuits which is being passed to your system. One thing you can do is to have an electrician instal a separate line from your mains board to a wall connection for your audio system so that the power supply to your system is isolated to a degree from every other electrical device in your home.

After that, or instead if you wish but I think having the separate line to your system is the best start and also the cheapest option you can also consider cleaning up the power going to your system even further with a power conditioner. There are lots of them out there and they all make different claims. The good ones are helpful, the bad ones do little, and I haven't tried them all. Judging from comments from users here, we've got members who are very happy with products from Audioquest, PS Audio, and Shunyata (listed in alphabetical order because I have only heard PS Audio out of those 3 brands and they seem to be the big names at the moment though there are lots of others). They each use different approaches and availability can depend on your location. For example Audioquest power products aren't available in Australia where I am and not all Shunyata models are available.

If you want to try one, consider what's available in your area and whether you can borrow one for a trial, and also consider the number of power outlets you need for your system. Everyone makes difference models and cost goes up with effectiveness within each manufacturer's range so think of your budget. Try before you buy and try over a couple of days when you're home for large parts of the day so you can see what they do at different times and decide whether they are effective with your power situation.
Hi, I agree with your detailed description. As we say, you can't make good beer (or tea or coffee...) with bad water. I would only add GigaWatt, a Polish manufacturer specialized in power conditioners, power filter strips, power cables, even sockets and circuit breakers, to your list. I use their PF2 power strip and assorted cables in my system (D200). They made a big difference! They are certainly worth their money and they are available in Australia.

Kind regards
Devialet 440 Pro C.I., Innuos Zen Mk3, Origin Live Calypso with Illustrious arm and Soundsmith Zephyr cartridge, KEF Reference 3, Vertere speaker cables and interconnects, 2 Nanotech 309 power cables for the 440, GigaWatt power strip and cables
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#18
Reading the posts here, I understand that a power regenerator is necessary for 7/24 quality playback.
The reason I haven't invested so far is that I really want to keep things as simple as possible.

Just to elaborate a little more, on my system.
Here is a diagram of my signal lines.

   

I use 3 sockets (Red, Green and Blue) to feed the system.

The BLUE LINE is conditioned via an old Richard Gray 400 PC.
It feeds the Devialet via a passive Lessloss filter which has a subtle but positive effect.
It also feeds a CD player which is rarely on.
This line is kind of dedicated, as it only feeds one more socket in the house, which is mostly unused. It was installed before I moved in the house, so I am not sure of its bandwidth. Should I check that it matches the demands of the Dev?

The GREEN LINE feeds a mac mini (and an ethernet power plug).
The mac mini passes its USB signal via a galvanic isolator. The idea here is to isolate the mac mini from the Dev as much as possible. The effect is subtle but it's there.

The RED LINE feeds a subwoofer (and various other bits and pieces).
I always disconnect the subwoofer first if I need to unplug the Devialet to avoid audible buzz on the subwoofer.

….
The system is ultra quiet. there is no noise or hum or buzzing that I can detect.
Improving on cabling throughout the system has mostly noticeable effects.

My issue remains though that regardless of the cable, the overall quality fluctuates. By that I mean, that while at its best, it presents a spectacular 3D image and wide soundstage, at its worst the soundstage flattens and instruments sound congested.
 
I can't quite detect a pattern. It degrades sometimes morning, sometimes at night. 
I do use it almost constantly, as it is in my work / home space, and what I have noticed is that if I disconnect the PC from the plug for a day or two, the quality is perfect when I reconnect, only to gradually drop over time.

__________
P.S.1
During this last year, I have also identified a bug in the latest firmware, where the tone control settings do not kick in when you switch from one source to another until you press the tone control button on the remote. Dev Tech is aware of this and should hopefully fix it.

P.S.2
Do power conditioners have a sell by date?
Mac Mini + Matrix X-SPDIF2 + Echoes Music 1  |  Pro-Ject CD Box RS2T  ⏵  Devialet Expert 250 Pro  ⏵  Boenicke W5 SE, B&W ASW 608 Sub
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#19
I absolutely can understand you. And a Niagara 3000 or up will provide a significant overall performance improvement - along with appropriate cables.
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#20
For a few dollars more he can get one more 250 Pro (used) and get faaaaar more significant performance improvement Wink

[Image: for-a-few-dollars-more.jpg]
Devialet Expert 440 Pro | Dynaudio Confidence 50 | 2x SVS SB16-Ultra
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