Raidho C1.2 Issue with D250

[daniel.avasilichioaei]

Just to give an update for those interested...

Raidho believe the blown tweeter was caused by some high frequency ringing/distortion. A raised impedance of the damaged tweeter is what suggests this.

My Townshend Isolda speaker cables have been serviced and they’re fine (because of the construction, a damaged/shorted cable can cause ringing).

The amp has gone off to Devialet and that came back with no problems reported.

The only other issue could be the source. I use Roon over Ethernet direct to Dev and a macmini connected via optical.

I’ve read reports online of macs causing high pitched ringing, though I don’t believe this could be transferred over optical. I sometimes play compressed video with compressed audio, but surely that cuts off the high frequencies.  

So still stumped at present...

The reason for most blown tweeters is an under powered amp clipping, though I wouldn’t expect a d250 to clip at the volumes I play...


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At this moment, I strongly recommend SAM to be turned OFF (from online configurator, not only set to 0% from the remote). I performed multiple tests during the last period (most of them using tone generator and pure waves containing 1 frequency only), and there are at least 3 reasons for this:
- Current firmware version (Firmware 13.1.3 + DOS 2.2.4) is a total failure on SAM area: turning bass or treble above 0 dB is generating heavy distortions. This is not happening on older firmware versions. Also, it is not happening if SAM is turned OFF.
- Between ~10 Hz and ~30 Hz, SAM ON is performing a very strong bass sound amplification. This is MUTCH more than a simple sound adjustment to match with speakers (or SAM purpose: "SAM lets your system achieve perfect temporal alignment between the recorded signal and the acoustic pressure generated by your loudspeakers"). This is for all firmware versions.
- Inside the range 12 ÷ 20 Hz, things are getting really out of control: Expert PRO is generating clicks and distortions on medium speaker - maybe treble speaker also. The source sound is not containing such frequencies, but Expert PRO is "generating" such sounds, and they are pretty loud. This is for all firmware versions.
SAM is supposed to work on very low frequencies only, but it seems that due some software bugs it may generate artificial sounds inside medium and high frequency ranges (and they are pretty loud).
The third reason (I am referring to "clicks and distortions on medium speaker - maybe treble speaker also") may be relating to your problem...

Thanks for this. I knew phase was effected by SAM across the whole frequency range, but it didn’t even cross my mind that this could happen.

Have you had Devialet confirm the problem? Are other people getting the same issue? Just moments ago they asked me to confirm my setup so their engineers could look further into the problem.

Once my tweeters are back SAM will be turned off.

Thanks again.


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Yes, I had reported these issues (and others too) to DEVIALET SUPPORT. This was a few weeks ago, but nothing happened till now...

[martynbaker1]

At this moment, I strongly recommend SAM to be turned OFF (from online configurator, not only set to 0% from the remote). I performed multiple tests during the last period (most of them using tone generator and pure waves containing 1 frequency only), and there are at least 3 reasons for this:
- Current firmware version (Firmware 13.1.3 + DOS 2.2.4) is a total failure on SAM area: turning bass or treble above 0 dB is generating heavy distortions. This is not happening on older firmware versions. Also, it is not happening if SAM is turned OFF.
- Between ~10 Hz and ~30 Hz, SAM ON is performing a very strong bass sound amplification. This is MUTCH more than a simple sound adjustment to match with speakers (or SAM purpose: "SAM lets your system achieve perfect temporal alignment between the recorded signal and the acoustic pressure generated by your loudspeakers"). This is for all firmware versions.
- Inside the range 12 ÷ 20 Hz, things are getting really out of control: Expert PRO is generating clicks and distortions on medium speaker - maybe treble speaker also. The source sound is not containing such frequencies, but Expert PRO is "generating" such sounds, and they are pretty loud. This is for all firmware versions.
SAM is supposed to work on very low frequencies only, but it seems that due some software bugs it may generate artificial sounds inside medium and high frequency ranges (and they are pretty loud).
The third reason (I am referring to "clicks and distortions on medium speaker - maybe treble speaker also") may be relating to your problem...

Thanks for this. I knew phase was effected by SAM across the whole frequency range, but it didn’t even cross my mind that this could happen.

Have you had Devialet confirm the problem? Are other people getting the same issue? Just moments ago they asked me to confirm my setup so their engineers could look further into the problem.

Once my tweeters are back SAM will be turned off.

Thanks again.


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Yes, I had reported these issues (and others too) to DEVIALET SUPPORT. This was a few weeks ago, but nothing happened till now...

Sorry to be pedantic, but did Devialet actually say they recognise these problems exist?

The reason I ask is it will make it a lot easier for me to pin them down if they’ve confirmed these problems exist.

Thanks again.


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[daniel.avasilichioaei]

Thanks for this. I knew phase was effected by SAM across the whole frequency range, but it didn’t even cross my mind that this could happen.

Have you had Devialet confirm the problem? Are other people getting the same issue? Just moments ago they asked me to confirm my setup so their engineers could look further into the problem.

Once my tweeters are back SAM will be turned off.

Thanks again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, I had reported these issues (and others too) to DEVIALET SUPPORT. This was a few weeks ago, but nothing happened till now...

Sorry to be pedantic, but did Devialet actually say they recognise these problems exist?

The reason I ask is it will make it a lot easier for me to pin them down if they’ve confirmed these problems exist.

Thanks again.


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"Nothing happened till now" it means that I have no answer at all from DEVIALET. A few days ago I escalated this situation, because I believe that support team is not enough qualified to understand such issues.

[martynbaker1]

Yes, I had reported these issues (and others too) to DEVIALET SUPPORT. This was a few weeks ago, but nothing happened till now...

Sorry to be pedantic, but did Devialet actually say they recognise these problems exist?

The reason I ask is it will make it a lot easier for me to pin them down if they’ve confirmed these problems exist.

Thanks again.


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"Nothing happened till now" it means that I have no answer at all from DEVIALET. A few days ago I escalated this situation, because I believe that support team is not enough qualified to understand such issues.

Thanks


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[thumb5]

...
My Townshend Isolda speaker cables have been serviced and they’re fine (because of the construction, a damaged/shorted cable can cause ringing).
...

Martyn, that's interesting; can you say more about the possibility of "ringing" in Isolda speaker cables and how that might damage a loudspeaker?  I also use Isolda speaker cables but I wasn't aware of that potential problem - now I've heard about it, I'd like to know how to avoid it.

Do you mind me asking what Townshend charged to service your cables?  PM me in reply if you prefer.

Thanks!

[martynbaker1]

...
My Townshend Isolda speaker cables have been serviced and they’re fine (because of the construction, a damaged/shorted cable can cause ringing).
...

Martyn, that's interesting; can you say more about the possibility of "ringing" in Isolda speaker cables and how that might damage a loudspeaker?  I also use Isolda speaker cables but I wasn't aware of that potential problem - now I've heard about it, I'd like to know how to avoid it.

Do you mind me asking what Townshend charged to service your cables?  PM me in reply if you prefer.

Thanks!

So in theory, if the speaker cable was damaged and the two flat copper cables within one of the cables made contact, then they could short and cause a high frequency ringing.

I say in theory, because no one has reported this previously, though Max Townshend said it was possible.

So someone accidentally stood on my cable bending them to the point I needed to gently ease them straight again. This is why I thought they might be damaged.

They charge £70 for a cable service from memory. One of the tests is sending 500v down the cable, so even if there was an intermittent shortening, that voltage would easily jump between the two copper strands if damaged.

Hope that helps!


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[thumb5]

Thanks Martyn

[martynbaker1]

Hi all, just to update for those interested...

It’s been a busy couple of weeks and I’m hoping to have my system back up and running next week with my (again) serviced Raidho tweeters.

Devialet D250: sent for service and returned within a week all FOC. Great service (once speaking to someone actually knowledgeable) and the unit came back with... no issues.

Following further feedback here and on Audioshark regarding SAM impacting the higher frequencies, I followed this subject up again with Devialet. They told me for the first time SAM effects the ENTIRE FREQUENCY RANGE.

So I should have paid more attention to @Rufusmcdifus’ point in one of the initial replies regarding SAM! And thanks for everyone else making me explore this further.

To recap, I had previously been told SAM only effects lower frequencies. Combined with feedback from Raidho that the C1.2 woofer measurements are not materially different to the C1.1 (they simply uhave an improved rubber surround), I have been using the C1.1 SAM profile on my C1.2 speakers. (Yes I know...)

In my most recent correspondence with Devialet, they say even a change of wiring or crossover components between the .1 and .2 versions of the speaker can result in incorrect energy being sent to the tweeter and potentially causing damage. Of course the C1.2 has new wiring and crossover components.

So I’m not out of the woods yet, however we have a prime suspect. I’ll be turning SAM off to see if this makes a difference. Most frustratingly only time will tell.

I’ll know within a week based on past experience...!


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[Confused]

Following further feedback here and on Audioshark regarding SAM impacting the higher frequencies, I followed this subject up again with Devialet. They told me for the first time SAM effects the ENTIRE FREQUENCY RANGE.

Can you clarify exactly what Devialet said?  The point being that SAM operates from 150Hz downwards, it does not work over the entire frequency range. 

From the Devialet white paper:

"SAM is effective on lower frequencies, up to 150Hz, yet its effects can be heard throughout the audio range"

So quite definitively, SAM operates below 150Hz.  Indeed, I have watched some 3 way speakers being SAM'ed at a Devialet event, only the bass driver was measured, so it cannot materially influence the tweeter. 

I suspect that Devialet were just reiterating the "yet its effects can be heard throughout the audio range" line, rather than implying that SAM itself operates above 150Hz?

[martynbaker1]

Following further feedback here and on Audioshark regarding SAM impacting the higher frequencies, I followed this subject up again with Devialet. They told me for the first time SAM effects the ENTIRE FREQUENCY RANGE.

Can you clarify exactly what Devialet said?  The point being that SAM operates from 150Hz downwards, it does not work over the entire frequency range. 

From the Devialet white paper:

"SAM is effective on lower frequencies, up to 150Hz, yet its effects can be heard throughout the audio range"

So quite definitively, SAM operates below 150Hz.  Indeed, I have watched some 3 way speakers being SAM'ed at a Devialet event, only the bass driver was measured, so it cannot materially influence the tweeter. 

I suspect that Devialet were just reiterating the "yet its effects can be heard throughout the audio range" line, rather than implying that SAM itself operates above 150Hz?

Yes no problem here’s a specific point from their correspondence:

“SAM is design to feed every speaker with more energy and most of that energy goes to the bass drivers but some of that energy may go elsewhere. Depending on the filter, that may cause potential issues.

Therefore, please turn SAM off if the model does not match.”

This is new information to me and contrary to what I’ve been told before. It could also simply be covering their ass...


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