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Sweet Room - Ideas for alternative uses other than room correction
#1
Devialet describe Sweet Room as a "room correction module for Expert", which is of course the obvious use for this feature.

I have been thinking that there are other ways Sweet Room could be used.

As an example, easily the largest variable and issue with my system is not the room, but the vast difference between the quality of the mix and mastering of the music I listen too.  (this may of course say something about my terrible taste in music, but I bought a decent system to listen to the music I like, not music that happens to be perfectly mastered)

Flicking from one track to the next, the system can go from sounding rich and powerful, to thin, tinny and disappointing.  There is nothing wrong with the system as such, it is just the fundamental difference between the mastering of the tracks.  I am sure many will recognise this as a phenomena often related to as "80's CDs syndrome" and similar.

So rather than correcting for the room, why not make something that will "correct" the mastering.

As t happens, this is something I have done myself for a long while.  As an example, iTunes has a 10 band graphic equaliser.  So I would have an equalisation set up, which you could think of as a 80's CD compensation device.  Hit one of those anaemic thin sounding 80's CD, everything sound a little disappointing, add a touch of EQ, and the improvement can be absolutely remarkable.  Later, I have come up with similar EQ's tha run with Roon's parametric equaliser.

I think the EQ you would need for this would vary between systems and to a degree be a matter of taste, but as a rough guide I would say you need a cut of about -3dB in the 2kHz range, with maybe a slight dip at 1kHz or 4kHz, then combine this with a bit of mid-bass boost, maybe 3dB at about 60Hz or so.

I guess that to find your own perfect "80's CD compensator" it would make sense to experiment with something that would allow you to listen to "real time" adjustments, so again something like the iTunes 10 band EQ or Roon's more sophisticated parametric EQ offering.  Then once you have found something that works for your system and ears, you could set up something equivalent in Sweet Room.

Variations on the above theme could include something equivalent to the old 70's "Loudness Button", which compensates to the Fletcher Munson curve effect for low level listening.  (if you like listening at low level)  Or you could have some kind of EQ that had the effect of adding a touch of "warmth", allowing you to switch between the fully transparent Devialet (clinical) sound to something more valve like.

A while ago someone posted a Roon parametric EQ for a "warmer sound", see below for reference.

   

The link below is a useful reference, as it give a simple correlation to EQ tweaks and what this might do to the sound.

https://cheatography.com/fredv/cheat-sheets/eq-tips/

So a couple of ideas from myself.  Hopefully others can come up with some similar ideas or tips.

Also, in time it would be good if people could share any successful Sweet Room configurations that they develop.  This has the potential to turn into a useful resource.
1000 Pro - KEF Blade - iFi Zen Stream - Mutec REF10 - MC3+USB - Pro-Ject Signature 12
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#2
Interesting idea, thanks for sharing!
Room: Gik Acoustics | Vibration: Townshend pods | Power: Shunyata Omega XC + Everest + Sigma NR v2 + Sigma ground cables | Source: Mojo Audio DejaVu EVO linux server running Roon core (Raat) | Ethernet: Sonore Optical module + Melco S10P with dedicated LPS + Shunyata Omega Ethernet x 2| Synchronous: Mutec MC-3 + USB (Paul Hynes SR7T LPS) + Cybershaft OP21A (Shunyata Omega USB, AES/EBU, clock cables) | Dac/Pre/Amplification: Devialet D1000 Pro CI (Chord Sarum T RCA-RCA link) | Speakers: Chord Sarum T cables + Wilson Benesch Act One Evolution P1
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#3
(18-Oct-2020, 13:16)Confused Wrote: The link below is a useful reference, as it give a simple correlation to EQ tweaks and what this might do to the sound.

https://cheatography.com/fredv/cheat-sheets/eq-tips/

So a couple of ideas from myself.  Hopefully others can come up with some similar ideas or tips.

Also, in time it would be good if people could share any successful Sweet Room configurations that they develop.  This has the potential to turn into a useful resource.

Maybe one of most (and rares) clarifying links or tips of this entire mess (sweet room). Thanks.
It looks like we´re digging for sometinhg that should be provided in an more accessible way.

If it has to be so, and at our expenses, so be it.
Mac mini with Roon, Devialet 220 Pro CI, Black Sixteen speaker cables, Sonus Faber Guarneri Tradition and a pair of ears.
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#4
Another possibility is speaker correction. If you have access to a reliable anechoic measurement plot of your speaker (manufacturer info, reviews such as Stereophile, or your own measurements if you know how to get results which exclude room influences) you could also use Sweet Room to compensate/correct speaker response anomalies which annoy you.

It's also worth noting that when you measure response in your room in order to use Sweet Room in the "normal" way, you are going to have speaker problems reflected in the results as well as what your room is doing to the sound and you will end up compensating for both room and speaker issues.
Roon Nucleus+, Devilalet Expert 140 Pro CI, Focal Sopra 2, PS Audio P12, Keces P8 LPS, Uptone Audio EtherREGEN with optical fibre link to my router, Shunyata Alpha NR and Sigma NR power cables, Shunyata Sigma ethernet cables, Shunyata Alpha V2 speaker cables, Grand Prix Audio Monaco rack, RealTRAPS acoustic treatment.

Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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#5
Because I have little stand mounts in a large room, I have them set up too close to the front wall to add a bit of bass boost. For some frequencies that works great but for some it muddies the sound. I’m planning to use Sweet Room to compensate for that. I don’t know what you would call that. ‘Bad speaker set up’ compensation perhaps?
                                                    Lifetime Roon, Mac mini, int. SSD, ext. HDD, tv as monitor, key board and track pad on bean bag as remote,Devialet 200, Od'A #097, Blue jeans speaker cable,                                     
                                                                                                                                                                            Dynaudio C1 MkII.
                                                                                                                                                                              Jim Smith's GBS.
                                                                                                                                                                        Northern NSW Australia.
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#6
(18-Oct-2020, 13:16)Confused Wrote: A while ago someone posted a Roon parametric EQ for a "warmer sound".

Also, in time it would be good if people could share any successful Sweet Room configurations that they develop.

Sweet Room is not as comprehensive as Roon EQ, i.e. it lacks many EQ types such as Low/High Pass and Low/High Shelf etc. etc.

However, I accepted your "challenge" and have created a similar looking frequency graph for the "warmer sound".  I do not have an Expert Pro, so I have no way of knowing what effect it will truly have.

// syntax:"EQ_x_L":[Frequency, dB_gain, Q_factor]
"EQ_1_L":[14000, -0.70, 0.20],
"EQ_2_L":[20000, -2.30, 0.30],
"EQ_3_L":[55.00, 5.60, 0.80],
"EQ_4_L":[20.00, -8.00, 2.08],

For good measure, the EQ.txt file is attached.
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#7
(18-Oct-2020, 20:56)Pim Wrote: Because I have little stand mounts in a large room, I have them set up too close to the front wall to add a bit of bass boost. For some frequencies that works great but for some it muddies the sound. I’m planning to use Sweet Room to compensate for that. I don’t know what you would call that. ‘Bad speaker set up’ compensation perhaps?

Pim,

Have you tried moving them out into the room? I used to have Dynaudio Contour 1.3 SEs.  not quite the C1s but still a 2 way stand mount with very good extension for a 2 way stand mount. I had them close to the walls in my previous home but when I moved to my current house I could put them in a bigger room and I ran with them out into the room with their front baffle 2 metres from the wall behind them, a bit further out even than Dynaudio's recommendation of 1 to 1.5 metres from the wall. I never felt that I lost any bass and I felt I actually got a more open and airy top end than when I had them much closer to the wall in my previous home. My experience with my Dyns was that getting them out from the wall actually helped overall and lost little or nothing on the bass end. I suspect that you could run the C1s further out into the room than you currently are without losing very much in the way of  bass boost from wall proximity and it may even go some way to clearing up that muddying you mention. I suspect that your room is larger than my current room so I probably wouldn't pull them out to 2 metres from the wall behind them but if you have them closer to the wall than 1 metre, I would definitely try somewhere in the 1 to 1.5 meter range that Dynaudio seem to recommend for their better 2 way stand mounts.
Roon Nucleus+, Devilalet Expert 140 Pro CI, Focal Sopra 2, PS Audio P12, Keces P8 LPS, Uptone Audio EtherREGEN with optical fibre link to my router, Shunyata Alpha NR and Sigma NR power cables, Shunyata Sigma ethernet cables, Shunyata Alpha V2 speaker cables, Grand Prix Audio Monaco rack, RealTRAPS acoustic treatment.

Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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#8
(19-Oct-2020, 02:52)David A Wrote:
(18-Oct-2020, 20:56)Pim Wrote: Because I have little stand mounts in a large room, I have them set up too close to the front wall to add a bit of bass boost. For some frequencies that works great but for some it muddies the sound. I’m planning to use Sweet Room to compensate for that. I don’t know what you would call that. ‘Bad speaker set up’ compensation perhaps?

Pim,

Have you tried moving them out into the room? I used to have Dynaudio Contour 1.3 SEs.  not quite the C1s but still a 2 way stand mount with very good extension for a 2 way stand mount. I had them close to the walls in my previous home but when I moved to my current house I could put them in a bigger room and I ran with them out into the room with their front baffle 2 metres from the wall behind them, a bit further out even than Dynaudio's recommendation of 1 to 1.5 metres from the wall. I never felt that I lost any bass and I felt I actually got a more open and airy top end than when I had them much closer to the wall in my previous home. My experience with my Dyns was that getting them out from the wall actually helped overall and lost little or nothing on the bass end. I suspect that you could run the C1s further out into the room than you currently are without losing very much in the way of  bass boost from wall proximity and it may even go some way to clearing up that muddying you mention. I suspect that your room is larger than my current room so I probably wouldn't pull them out to 2 metres from the wall behind them but if you have them closer to the wall than 1 metre, I would definitely try somewhere in the 1 to 1.5 meter range that Dynaudio seem to recommend for their better 2 way stand mounts.

Well, I gave it go. I have to say it was quite good fun to have a proper sound stage again. It's been nearly two years since I moved them from our old living room to the new and I'd forgotten how good these speakers are. But, and that's quite a but, the lowest bass was lost. 

I also moved the listening seat closer and that showed me that I can actually get most of the room's reflections out of the way. I reckon with a couple of subs it can sound really, really good and this little exercise has also got my wife more interested in listening to music 'properly'.

Altogether a good day. Thanks for the tip David.
                                                    Lifetime Roon, Mac mini, int. SSD, ext. HDD, tv as monitor, key board and track pad on bean bag as remote,Devialet 200, Od'A #097, Blue jeans speaker cable,                                     
                                                                                                                                                                            Dynaudio C1 MkII.
                                                                                                                                                                              Jim Smith's GBS.
                                                                                                                                                                        Northern NSW Australia.
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#9
@Pim ,

For a long time I used what used to be called the Audio Physic method for speaker placement. The basic setup was speakers along the long room axis, half way between the front and back walls (way into the room hence the 2 metres from the wall behind that I mentioned, also 2 metres from the wall behind me) and situated one quarter of the width of the room from the closest side wall, so half the width of the room between the speakers, and the listening position close to the back wall. What this tends to result in is a listening position that is a bit closer to the speaker plane than is often the case, the speakers at a wider angle to the listening position than is usually the case, and what I think in some ways is the most important feature which is that the first reflection paths from the side walls and the wall behind the speakers are much longer than the direct sound paths from speakers to listener, That means that the level of the first reflections is quite a bit lower in level relative to the level of the direct sound than is often the case in most setups, especially setups where the speakers are close to a wall. The effect of that lowering of the relative level of the first reflections is, as you put it, to "get most of the room's reflections out of the way". That usually results in a really good sound stage and imaging.

When I first tried it, I was expecting to lose a lot of bass because of the loss of reinforcement from the walls but I was surprised at how little I lost. The bass was also surprisingly clean and well defined. Putting the speakers midway between the front and back walls puts them in a null position for the room mode based on that room axis so they don't activate the mode strongly. Having the speakers a quarter of the room's width from the side walls means that they're also in nulls for one of the side wall modes but it also means that the side wall reflections for the side to side room axis modes of the two speakers are out of phase with each other, cancelling their modal effect. This setup method strongly reduces the impact of room modes related to 2 of the room's 3 axes.

The one big drawback from this setup method is that it's pretty impossible to get away with having the speakers in the middle of the room if you don't have a dedicated listening room. It is an extremely living room unfriendly speaker setup and probably not all that good as part of a HT surround sound setup either but for stereo listening I found it to work extremely well.
Roon Nucleus+, Devilalet Expert 140 Pro CI, Focal Sopra 2, PS Audio P12, Keces P8 LPS, Uptone Audio EtherREGEN with optical fibre link to my router, Shunyata Alpha NR and Sigma NR power cables, Shunyata Sigma ethernet cables, Shunyata Alpha V2 speaker cables, Grand Prix Audio Monaco rack, RealTRAPS acoustic treatment.

Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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#10
I've set up the 'warm' equaliser in Roon as per @Confused 's screenshot above and am having a session tonight to see whether I like it or whether it needs work. The more songs I listen to, the more I tend to adjust it closer to 'flat'. It'll be interesting to see where this ends. If I find a setting I like a lot, I'll add it to the Pro.
                                                    Lifetime Roon, Mac mini, int. SSD, ext. HDD, tv as monitor, key board and track pad on bean bag as remote,Devialet 200, Od'A #097, Blue jeans speaker cable,                                     
                                                                                                                                                                            Dynaudio C1 MkII.
                                                                                                                                                                              Jim Smith's GBS.
                                                                                                                                                                        Northern NSW Australia.
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