System Design Assistance

[Altie]

The Devialet speaker line comprises a relatively complex array of products, and possible product configurations, from earlier generations to the present, both mono and stereo set-ups, various models and amplification options, etc. (The color choices I can handle!)

I'm trying to take as scientific approach as possible, and to avoid being seduced by design and decibels, but I keep getting weary and bleary trying to figure it all out, and I have twice, thrice, or more than thrice decided to move on to something else a little easier to solve... as is a simple KEF or perhaps Buchardt wireless system.  I just cannot seem to gather enough relevant information to compare the performance of the various Devialet models and configurations, and to figure out what products and configuration would be optimal for my application, or any other specific application.

So, I'd love some help, recommendations, opinions, a referral thereto, or any other guidance on how to design and spec an optimal Devialet system for a specific space and application.  To me, these speakers aren't inexpensive, and I'd like to get it right the first time.

I'm hoping this hits the right forum!  Sorry if I've mis-posted it. Thank you!

-Alfred

[Jean-Marie]

I am not sure tu understand the kind of system you are looking for.

Do you try to create the absolute best system, price is not a factor?
If this is the case I would look at a pair of full range speakers that can be quad amplify and would amplify them with 4 D250 bridged in mono and do all the filtering in the digital domain.

We are speaking here multiple hundreds of thousands euros or USD, if not more zeros, depending on the speakers.

Do you try to create an excellent system with a hard to beat quality over price ratio?
In that case I would look at a pair for gold phantoms I, the 108dB models.

You are now in the 6000 Euro / USD range for a truly full range system of quality that would cost you probably 10 times more to match with a more traditional approach.

The main argument not to go with this approach would be if vinyl is a very important source for you and you want the bells and whistles of the phono stage of the experts or if you don’t like the design of the phantoms and prefer more traditional speakers.

Between those two systems, you have all the spectrum represented by picking a pair of speakers you like and sound right to your hears powered by the range of amplifiers of your choice.

If you take my system (in my signature) it’s costs about twice a pair of gold phantoms.
It is perhaps a tiny bit better in the mid range and high range, but I would not bet my head over it and most probably this is post rationalization bias to be satisfied by my choice.
It is beaten hands down in the bass compartment even by a pair of phantom II, and I can tell you that a pair of Phantom I gold is another league.

But I like my system and my speakers and I prefer the aesthetic of my speakers in my living room, so I don’t feel any frustration.

Last but not least, don’t get fooled by the apparent simplicity of system made of a pair of phantoms: this is a full range system, full to an extent that few speakers can even dream to reach. As such, the setting up, the acoustics of the room, handling the room modes is not a smaller endeavor than with the insane, cost is not a concern system I described in the beginning.
This to say, that like with every system, the end quality depends a lot on the overall acoustic setup.

My two cents,
Jean-Marie
PS: I’m not considering the Dione in this post for the only reason that I did not have the opportunity to listen to it yet.

[Altie]

I am not sure tu understand the kind of system you are looking for.

Do you try to create the absolute best system, price is not a factor?
If this is the case I would look at a pair of full range speakers that can be quad amplify and would amplify them with 4 D250 bridged in mono and do all the filtering in the digital domain.

We are speaking here multiple hundreds of thousands euros or USD, if not more zeros, depending on the speakers.

Do you try to create an excellent system with a hard to beat quality over price ratio?
In that case I would look at a pair for gold phantoms I, the 108dB models.

You are now in the 6000 Euro / USD range for a truly full range system of quality that would cost you probably 10 times more to match with a more traditional approach.

The main argument not to go with this approach would be if vinyl is a very important source for you and you want the bells and whistles of the phono stage of the experts or if you don’t like the design of the phantoms and prefer more traditional speakers.

Between those two systems, you have all the spectrum represented by picking a pair of speakers you like and sound right to your hears powered by the range of amplifiers of your choice.

If you take my system (in my signature) it’s costs about twice a pair of gold phantoms.
It is perhaps a tiny bit better in the mid range and high range, but I would not bet my head over it and most probably this is post rationalization bias to be satisfied by my choice.
It is beaten hands down in the bass compartment even by a pair of phantom II, and I can tell you that a pair of Phantom I gold is another league.

But I like my system and my speakers and I prefer the aesthetic of my speakers in my living room, so I don’t feel any frustration.

Last but not least, don’t get fooled by the apparent simplicity of system made of a pair of phantoms: this is a full range system, full to an extent that few speakers can even dream to reach. As such, the setting up, the acoustics of the room, handling the room modes is not a smaller endeavor than with the insane, cost is not a concern system I described in the beginning.
This to say, that like with every system, the end quality depends a lot on the overall acoustic setup.

My two cents,
Jean-Marie
PS: I’m not considering the Dione in this post for the only reason that I did not have the opportunity to listen to it yet.

Thank you, Jean Marie!  I appreciate your care and thoughtfulness and excellent insight. 

I come from a large-expensive system background.  I am a musician, have a music studio, and it is there that I have my remaining high-end reproduction equipment, tube equipment, turntable, etc.  But the big system, with the monoblocks and the 400 lb speakers, is gone - donated to a local arts group. That system was carefully curated for a home I owned at the time, and was what I would consider a "Heavy" system - big speakers, oxygen-free cables, a well-defined listening position, acoustic treatment, etc. Now, I am in an 1800s house that is totally different, and the listening environment is less formal and defined.  Further, this system will only use content that I create and stream to it, or other recorded music that is digitally stored and archived. 

These compromises aside, I still want to get as close as possible to the excellence of the "heavy" system, using a solution as elegant as what the Devialets suggest.  

I thought the Devialets would be appropriate here, with less-focused listening (where the listener's position and location is variable and may not be consistent), as such a space-filling application that would normally play at low to mid levels, and that would fit decoratively in my current home.  Wireless active speakers would seem to be essential here.  Perhaps there will be a sweet spot, but the system should sound reasonably good from a variety of locations.

I am not as concerned about the price of the various Devialet models as I am in selecting the products that are best for the application - size, power, dispersion, that kind of thing.  More power in this room is not necessarily desirable, as the room is pretty "live" as it is.  I just don't know if two Phantom II's are preferable, or two phantom I's, and at what power level - and Opera de Paris?  I don't know, how would one pick for optimal sound quality, in a live and irregularly shaped space, which is not designed as a listening room, and has no curated elements to optimize it.  Just furniture, art, and a grand piano.

I guess I just don't understand the distinctions among the various speakers or how, if I knew the distinctions, I might select the best system for the space, if price were not an object.  With Devialet, is bigger and more expensive better in all cases?  Should I really just start buying and trying?  Is this the best methodology and really what Devialet recommends?

I hope the expression of my situation and questions make sense.  Thank you so much for your time and wisdom!

Best-

Alfred

[Damon]

I haven't heard any of the Phantoms in a long time, and never had much time with them even then, so I couldn't give much guidance on them. If however, your ideal system was built around a turntable and tubes I think some listening time with them would be wise. I do see that you will be streaming your own material digitally, so clearly you are comfy with that format.

My only thought about the Phantoms is that the Gold's seem to be considered as better on the midrange and highs, but I'm well out of date on knowing which model or era of Gold that would be. The Opera version is a cosmetic change only, I think.

I had a pair of the Buchardt A500's on trial. They are very compact and accomplished. Darko raved about them. As much as I wanted them to be right for me, they weren't. The bass was impressive, but perhaps a bit clouded, though plenty of it and good depth. The mids I found a bit .... uneven? Not sure how to describe it. But overall the mids and uppers seemed a bit 'cupped' as when putting your hands around your mouth to direct your voice when shouting at someone. After 60 hours or so I returned them. Great company, great communication and service, however.

BTW, In listening, as well as our normal music preferences I also used recordings of material that I played on,, so I could really tell if tone and balance were as they were supposed to be. I get how that is a different kind of listening and evaluating.

Anyhow, just thought I'd toss that thought in. Be interested to know your take on what you hear.

[Jean-Marie]

I am not sure tu understand the kind of system you are looking for.

Do you try to create the absolute best system, price is not a factor?
If this is the case I would look at a pair of full range speakers that can be quad amplify and would amplify them with 4 D250 bridged in mono and do all the filtering in the digital domain.

We are speaking here multiple hundreds of thousands euros or USD, if not more zeros, depending on the speakers.

Do you try to create an excellent system with a hard to beat quality over price ratio?
In that case I would look at a pair for gold phantoms I, the 108dB models.

You are now in the 6000 Euro / USD range for a truly full range system of quality that would cost you probably 10 times more to match with a more traditional approach.

The main argument not to go with this approach would be if vinyl is a very important source for you and you want the bells and whistles of the phono stage of the experts or if you don’t like the design of the phantoms and prefer more traditional speakers.

Between those two systems, you have all the spectrum represented by picking a pair of speakers you like and sound right to your hears powered by the range of amplifiers of your choice.

If you take my system (in my signature) it’s costs about twice a pair of gold phantoms.
It is perhaps a tiny bit better in the mid range and high range, but I would not bet my head over it and most probably this is post rationalization bias to be satisfied by my choice.
It is beaten hands down in the bass compartment even by a pair of phantom II, and I can tell you that a pair of Phantom I gold is another league.

But I like my system and my speakers and I prefer the aesthetic of my speakers in my living room, so I don’t feel any frustration.

Last but not least, don’t get fooled by the apparent simplicity of system made of a pair of phantoms: this is a full range system, full to an extent that few speakers can even dream to reach. As such, the setting up, the acoustics of the room, handling the room modes is not a smaller endeavor than with the insane, cost is not a concern system I described in the beginning.
This to say, that like with every system, the end quality depends a lot on the overall acoustic setup.

My two cents,
Jean-Marie
PS: I’m not considering the Dione in this post for the only reason that I did not have the opportunity to listen to it yet.

Thank you, Jean Marie!  I appreciate your care and thoughtfulness and excellent insight. 

I come from a large-expensive system background.  I am a musician, have a music studio, and it is there that I have my remaining high-end reproduction equipment, tube equipment, turntable, etc.  But the big system, with the monoblocks and the 400 lb speakers, is gone - donated to a local arts group. That system was carefully curated for a home I owned at the time, and was what I would consider a "Heavy" system - big speakers, oxygen-free cables, a well-defined listening position, acoustic treatment, etc. Now, I am in an 1800s house that is totally different, and the listening environment is less formal and defined.  Further, this system will only use content that I create and stream to it, or other recorded music that is digitally stored and archived. 

These compromises aside, I still want to get as close as possible to the excellence of the "heavy" system, using a solution as elegant as what the Devialets suggest.  

I thought the Devialets would be appropriate here, with less-focused listening (where the listener's position and location is variable and may not be consistent), as such a space-filling application that would normally play at low to mid levels, and that would fit decoratively in my current home.  Wireless active speakers would seem to be essential here.  Perhaps there will be a sweet spot, but the system should sound reasonably good from a variety of locations.

I am not as concerned about the price of the various Devialet models as I am in selecting the products that are best for the application - size, power, dispersion, that kind of thing.  More power in this room is not necessarily desirable, as the room is pretty "live" as it is.  I just don't know if two Phantom II's are preferable, or two phantom I's, and at what power level - and Opera de Paris?  I don't know, how would one pick for optimal sound quality, in a live and irregularly shaped space, which is not designed as a listening room, and has no curated elements to optimize it.  Just furniture, art, and a grand piano.

I guess I just don't understand the distinctions among the various speakers or how, if I knew the distinctions, I might select the best system for the space, if price were not an object.  With Devialet, is bigger and more expensive better in all cases?  Should I really just start buying and trying?  Is this the best methodology and really what Devialet recommends?

I hope the expression of my situation and questions make sense.  Thank you so much for your time and wisdom!

Best-

Alfred

Then I think the Phantoms I 108dB is what you are looking for in the lineup for Devialet. 

@Damon is absolutely correct that the only difference between the 108dB and the opera is cosmetic and also that the highs of the 108dB model are more refined because of the higher end tweeter. 

However, I fully concur with @Damon in recommending that you listen to them in your room to make your own judgement. Either you can buy them from a dealer who would give you a pair of loaners or you can use the return policy if you buy them online. 

Also, because these are truly full range and high end speakers, there need to be properly setup at the right eighth, therefore I recommend to consider using stands (the tree is the stand especially mad for them, but any good stand can do it)

Now to give you an overview of the line up here is my high level description starting from the lower end to the higher end:

1. Phantom II 95dB: two way system with max SPL of 95dB
   
2. Phantom II 98dB: two way system with max SPL of 98dB (will mostly translate in a bit more bass)
   
3. Phantom I 103dB: three way system with an aluminum dome tweeter with max SPL of 103dB
   
4. Phantom I 108dB: three way system with a titanium dome tweeter with max SPL of 108dB (more refined highs and even more authority in bass down to 14Hz)
   

The phantom II Opéra is a II 98dB with golden cosmetic and the phantom I Opera is a I 108 with golden cosmetic. 

I hope it helps,

Jean-Marie

[struts]

Do you try to create the absolute best system, price is not a factor?
If this is the case I would look at a pair of full range speakers that can be quad amplify and would amplify them with 4 D250 bridged in mono and do all the filtering in the digital domain.

We are speaking here multiple hundreds of thousands euros or USD, if not more zeros, depending on the speakers.

I think this is what you mean Jean-Marie.  An active quad-amped pair of Vivid Spirits.  Pretty cool. 

[Jean-Marie]

Do you try to create the absolute best system, price is not a factor?
If this is the case I would look at a pair of full range speakers that can be quad amplify and would amplify them with 4 D250 bridged in mono and do all the filtering in the digital domain.

We are speaking here multiple hundreds of thousands euros or USD, if not more zeros, depending on the speakers.

I think this is what you mean Jean-Marie.  An active quad-amped pair of Vivid Spirits.  Pretty cool. 

Indeed. 

I also know that Devialet did a similar system with Nautilus speakers (from the same designer as the vivids)

[struts]

Indeed. 

I also know that Devialet did a similar system with Nautilus speakers (from the same designer as the vivids)

Yeah, now we're talking!  And these guys didn't skimp like the ones above did, dual mono x4!!

[Jean-Marie]

Indeed. 

I also know that Devialet did a similar system with Nautilus speakers (from the same designer as the vivids)

Yeah, now we're talking!  And these guys didn't skimp like the ones above did, dual mono x4!!

You have to wonder if that large of glass surface behind the speakers is not just defeating all the gains of rest of the system, but that's a different topic...

[Nickname]

Indeed. 

I also know that Devialet did a similar system with Nautilus speakers (from the same designer as the vivids)

Yeah, now we're talking!  And these guys didn't skimp like the ones above did, dual mono x4!!

You have to wonder if that large of glass surface behind the speakers is not just defeating all the gains of rest of the system, but that's a different topic...

I was there and this glass surface didn't hurt. It was the best system I had been given to try and I cannot forget it.