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Using Devialet's active cross-over
#1
The reason I was interested in Devialet was not only its sound quality as an amplifier/DAC but its built in digital cross-over function. I have seen almost no discussion of that feature (except for subwoofers) and I thought it would be best to describe my system. It is in a large multifunctional room with the equipment roughly 1/3 into the long axis. So everything is visible from all sides and thus I must avoid excessive cables and other toys.
   
   
The speakers were designed and made by myself. The woofers are Accuton S280 and I was originally using Manger MSW for Mid to high but one of them degraded and I started to develop my own bending wave transducers. After many generations they sound better than what I had originally. The actual cross-over frequency is at 350 Hz.
My Devialet D-Premier upgraded to D250 is used for mid/highs (high pass via the configurator).
Line out (low pass) is connected to Kharma MP150 mono amps driving the woofers.
My main source is an antique Meridian 208 used as a CD transport and is still the best sounding digital source I have tried. I really like it's design!
Additionally I am using an Astell&Kern AK120 via Toslink and a Macbook Pro via AIR/ethernet or Audirvana Plus via USB.
Power is supplied via a dedicated circuit and floor outlets requiring only very short power cords.
Speaker cables and interconnect are DIY (silver based) and run in that floor raceway.
I think presently I need to improve my digital sources, searching but I have not found anything yet worth investing in.
When I got the D-Premier I was using a passive crossover in my speakers but switching to that digital cross-over function was a very significant improvement of sound quality: much more dynamic, better bass control and extension, better resolution, decay, imaging.
Any passive crossover no matter how expensive the components reduce sound quality and efficiency. Almost all commercial speakers are based on passive crossovers and only very few have the option to circumvent these and allow there use bi-amping with an active cross over. There is an increasing number of manufacturers which are producing active loudspeakers which now contain mostly digital crossovers (e.g. Merdian, Linn, Manger, PMC, Genelec etc.).
Devialet was originally very attuned to digital cross-overs but the options on the configurator are somewhat limited and not much developed further. The crossover slopes are less than they are supposed to be and no really steep slopes are available but that does not matter too much for my setup as one can choose slopes and crossover frequencies independently for high and low pass (out). Choosing these parameters requires measurements. One thing is totally missing but originally announced is time domain correction (I think the main reason why SAM works for many speakers). I hope it will be implemented one day.
Active cross-overs are beyond what SAM can do as it eliminates the passive components. Some of the commercial speakers could be modified to use active cross-overs but now it is mostly the domain of DIY in connection with Devialet.
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#2
Bold design and standout yellow color. I love it.

I guess I kind of envy guys like you who are into the DIY domain Smile

It must add another dimension of pleasure to the whole music journey

Enjoy Smile
Aurender X100L / Transrotor Crescendo TT / Denon DCD1520 / Macbook Pro >> D400 >> Martin Logan Montis
amabrok's system - Latest update (May 2015, Page 11, Post #109)

Dubai, UAE
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#3
Awesome stuff!

There were a few interviews a year or so ago with a few speaker designers on the Soundstage! network. Lawrence Dickie (Vivid) was one of them. They all agreed that the best way forward was active x-overs. The hurdle for speaker designers is not how to make the best active speakers but more how to sell them to what seems to be more 'tinkerers' than music lovers. I just want my music to sound good but from what I read I'm in a minority and most people in this hobby just feel the need to muck with their setup on a regular basis.
There's a slow change happening (Dynaudio has just introduced the new active Focus range with 600Watt in their top floor stander! Just imagine a floor stander with Devialet ADH amplification) but I can understand that the industry as a whole isn't too keen on this. Imagine a world where all you need is a laptop and a set of speakers. Where's the profit in selling that?

On another note; I see you have a stone floor and a high (raked?) ceiling with little furniture. Does it have a negative impact on SQ? I'm very curious because that's what our new living room will be like and I'm a bit worried about echo echo echo...

Cheers,

Pim
                                                    Lifetime Roon, Mac mini, int. SSD, ext. HDD, tv as monitor, key board and track pad on bean bag as remote,Devialet 200, Od'A #097, Blue jeans speaker cable,                                     
                                                                                                                                                                            Dynaudio C1 MkII.
                                                                                                                                                                              Jim Smith's GBS.
                                                                                                                                                                        Northern NSW Australia.
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#4
Ironically it seems the way forward for selling active crossovers to the public is to market active speakers as lifestyle products. No clumsy great amps, no speaker cables trailing across your living room: just a digital source communicating via one cable (or even wirelessly) with the little amp/DAC packs inside your nice slim speakers.

As far as SQ is concerned, whilst I agree that passive crossovers are a bad thing, for my money they don’t rank in the top three bottlenecks in speaker design. For me the top three SQ bottlenecks are: 1. cabinets, with their boxy, resonant character; 2. electrodynamic drivers and their problems with inertia; 3. using any crossover at all, active or passive (full range, please!).

Matt

Sonos Connect (W4S) > DSpeaker Antimode 2.0 > Sanders Magtech > Martin Logan Montis
Sonos Connect (W4S) > Devialet 200 > Vivid V1.5
Silver Phantoms (just the two)
London
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#5
(15-Dec-2014, 13:05)Jwg1749 Wrote: Ironically it seems the way forward for selling active crossovers to the public is to market active speakers as lifestyle products. No clumsy great amps, no speaker cables trailing across your living room: just a digital source communicating via one cable (or even wirelessly) with the little amp/DAC packs inside your nice slim speakers.

As far as SQ is concerned, whilst I agree that passive crossovers are a bad thing, for my money they don’t rank in the top three bottlenecks in speaker design. For me the top three SQ bottlenecks are: 1. cabinets, with their boxy, resonant character; 2. electrodynamic drivers and their problems with inertia; 3. using any crossover at all, active or passive (full range, please!).

Matt

hence the brilliance of the ML Montis Idea Big Grin
Aurender X100L / Transrotor Crescendo TT / Denon DCD1520 / Macbook Pro >> D400 >> Martin Logan Montis
amabrok's system - Latest update (May 2015, Page 11, Post #109)

Dubai, UAE
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#6
(15-Dec-2014, 15:01)amabrok Wrote:
(15-Dec-2014, 13:05)Jwg1749 Wrote: Ironically it seems the way forward for selling active crossovers to the public is to market active speakers as lifestyle products. No clumsy great amps, no speaker cables trailing across your living room: just a digital source communicating via one cable (or even wirelessly) with the little amp/DAC packs inside your nice slim speakers.

As far as SQ is concerned, whilst I agree that passive crossovers are a bad thing, for my money they don’t rank in the top three bottlenecks in speaker design. For me the top three SQ bottlenecks are: 1. cabinets, with their boxy, resonant character; 2. electrodynamic drivers and their problems with inertia; 3. using any crossover at all, active or passive (full range, please!).

Matt

hence the brilliance of the ML Montis Idea Big Grin

Busted! Blush

Sonos Connect (W4S) > DSpeaker Antimode 2.0 > Sanders Magtech > Martin Logan Montis
Sonos Connect (W4S) > Devialet 200 > Vivid V1.5
Silver Phantoms (just the two)
London
Reply
#7
(15-Dec-2014, 13:05)Jwg1749 Wrote: Ironically it seems the way forward for selling active crossovers to the public is to market active speakers as lifestyle products. No clumsy great amps, no speaker cables trailing across your living room: just a digital source communicating via one cable (or even wirelessly) with the little amp/DAC packs inside your nice slim speakers.

As far as SQ is concerned, whilst I agree that passive crossovers are a bad thing, for my money they don’t rank in the top three bottlenecks in speaker design. For me the top three SQ bottlenecks are: 1. cabinets, with their boxy, resonant character; 2. electrodynamic drivers and their problems with inertia; 3. using any crossover at all, active or passive (full range, please!).

Matt

I agree with no crossover would be the best (just built such speakers this year) but I have not heard full range drivers which have enough bass energy for large rooms and good high frequency performance (except very large Sound Lab).
Also there is doppler distortion to consider. Bending Wave driver have a very wide frequency range and no inertia problem (no acceleration of a mass) but they have problems with reaching low frequencies. So a woofer with excellent time response is necessary and thus a cross-over.

(15-Dec-2014, 12:04)Pim van Vliet Wrote: On another note; I see you have a stone floor and a high (raked?) ceiling with little furniture. Does it have a negative impact on SQ? I'm very curious because that's what our new living room will be like and I'm a bit worried about echo echo echo...

Cheers,

Pim
The floor is very reflective but ceiling is slightly vaulted and very light construction with thick layers of cotton insulation (Bonded Logic) which has a very good wide range sound absorption. Also there is a small gap around the perimeter of the ceiling only covered with speaker cloth. So the ceiling acts as a very large sound absorber.
The speakers face a wall mostly covered with a bookcase and additional absorption material avoiding longitudinal echoes.
Some more acoustic treatment would be beneficial but I have not found anything which would fit esthetically- maybe sound absorbing art objects?
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#8
(15-Dec-2014, 18:06)Music or sound Wrote: I agree with no crossover would be the best (just built such speakers this year) but I have not heard full range drivers which have enough bass energy for large rooms and good high frequency performance (except very large Sound Lab).
Also there is doppler distortion to consider. Bending Wave driver have a very wide frequency range and no inertia problem (no acceleration of a mass) but they have problems with reaching low frequencies. So a woofer with excellent time response is necessary and thus a cross-over.

Good points. It's hard to generate realistic bass with anything but a conventional electrodynamic driver, so a crossover somewhere is unavoidable if you want full range. The trick is to put the crossover where it's less noticeable, i.e. below about 500Hz. This is what hybrid ESL speakers do, e.g. Martin Logan and Sanders.

Sonos Connect (W4S) > DSpeaker Antimode 2.0 > Sanders Magtech > Martin Logan Montis
Sonos Connect (W4S) > Devialet 200 > Vivid V1.5
Silver Phantoms (just the two)
London
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#9
(15-Dec-2014, 13:05)Jwg1749 Wrote: For me the top three SQ bottlenecks are: 1. cabinets, with their boxy, resonant character; 2. electrodynamic drivers and their problems with inertia; 3. using any crossover at all, active or passive (full range, please!).

Have you seen the Leedh E2?

http://www.leedh-acoustic.com/

Patcam on here owns a pair, supposed to sound amazing.

Guillaume
Industry disclosure: UK distributor for Shunyata Research

220 PRO, totaldac d1 server with additional external power supply, totaldac d1-seven, Echole PSU for Totaldac, Wilson Audio Sasha 2, Shunyata Research cables, Shunyata Hydra Alpha A10 + DPC-6 v3, Various Entreq ground boxes and cables, Entreq Athena level 3 rack, 2 X SOtM sNH-10G with sCLK-EX + 10MHz Master Clock input + sPS-500 PSU, i5 sonicTransporter w/ 1TB SSD

UK
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#10
(16-Dec-2014, 13:55)GuillaumeB Wrote:
(15-Dec-2014, 13:05)Jwg1749 Wrote: For me the top three SQ bottlenecks are: 1. cabinets, with their boxy, resonant character; 2. electrodynamic drivers and their problems with inertia; 3. using any crossover at all, active or passive (full range, please!).

Have you seen the Leedh E2?

http://www.leedh-acoustic.com/

Patcam on here owns a pair, supposed to sound amazing.

Guillaume

Yes, a very interesting design: I'd love to hear it.

Sonos Connect (W4S) > DSpeaker Antimode 2.0 > Sanders Magtech > Martin Logan Montis
Sonos Connect (W4S) > Devialet 200 > Vivid V1.5
Silver Phantoms (just the two)
London
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