Using random SAM profiles on unSAMable speakers

[f1eng]

Thanks and no worries Jean-Marie, I'll keep going tho I did get a chuckle from f1's implication that I was simply getting some 'bass-boost' effect and nothing more. As a nigh on 70 year old man who's been deeply involved in audio for just shy of 5 decades and doesn't use so much as a sub with my bookshelf speakers, or run my Devialet eq settings higher than zero/zero I find it insulting he might think mere bass boost or some 'loudness button' effect would blow a lot of cool breezes up my skirt. Silly man!

Silly man here.

SAM profile is applied below 200Hz, I believe. The changes you are enjoying are a change to the amplitude and phase of signals below 200Hz, which will mainly be a boost but the timing will change too.

I don't say you don't enjoy it, just that it can not be actually accurately correcting the speakers you made, just giving a bass amplitude and phase shift.
It isn't like a loudness button, which, properly implemented, alters high frequencies too.

If you enjoy it and find it an enhancement that is fine.

My concerns would be the same as those of Jean-Marie of damage if applying a SAM profile wildly inappropriate for your speakers.

[Manoet]

I concede your legitimacy of the loudness button tho decades ago when I had one its primary use was for enhanced bass when no other option was available. And I have to disagree that SAM is merely a bass boost on my or any speaker. Yes its limited mostly to bass but not 'just' mindless boost. At the risk of redundancy and since get-go I've made no claims as to SAM "accurately correcting" my speakers. Far from it in fact. What I have said is that on at least one occasion so far it has performed better than the speakers did before SAM was applied. Your concerns are duly noted.

[amabrok]

I had big success with Martin Logan Theos SAM v1 profile on Martin Logan Montis. While one would expect no impact at all since the Montis has a powered sub with its own DSP but I found the Theos SAM profile to add excellent coherence and seamless integration between the sub and the panel.


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[Hifi_swlon]

My concerns would be the same as those of Jean-Marie of damage if applying a SAM profile wildly inappropriate for your speakers.

I just picked up on this and am curious as to what SAM does that might harm a different model speaker?

Isn't a Devialet running SAM pretty much the only amplifier that has awareness of the speakers drivers and their limits, and so a speaker has to be able to stand pretty much whatever is thrown at it - assuming someones manning the volume and is vaguely using common sense. I think my Facts have some kind of braking mechanism?

Or is this completely wrong? Apologies for my lack of knowledge!

[Jean-Marie]

My concerns would be the same as those of Jean-Marie of damage if applying a SAM profile wildly inappropriate for your speakers.

I just picked up on this and am curious as to what SAM does that might harm a different model speaker?

Isn't a Devialet running SAM pretty much the only amplifier that has awareness of the speakers drivers and their limits, and so a speaker has to be able to stand pretty much whatever is thrown at it - assuming someones manning the volume and is vaguely using common sense.  I think my Facts have some kind of braking mechanism?

Or is this completely wrong?  Apologies for my lack of knowledge!

My understanding is that SAM is driving the speaker in acceleration under 150 Hz. Which means that it is calculating which voltage needs to be apply instantaneously to get the right acceleration. it will do so within the acceptable envelope of the given speaker.

To illustrate with a extreme example, if you feed the amplifier a SAM profile with a very low efficiency speaker but supporting a lot of watts, it can, even under very low volume, apply very high power that would shred apart a much higher efficiency speaker.

Jean-Marie

[Hifi_swlon]

My concerns would be the same as those of Jean-Marie of damage if applying a SAM profile wildly inappropriate for your speakers.

I just picked up on this and am curious as to what SAM does that might harm a different model speaker?

Isn't a Devialet running SAM pretty much the only amplifier that has awareness of the speakers drivers and their limits, and so a speaker has to be able to stand pretty much whatever is thrown at it - assuming someones manning the volume and is vaguely using common sense.  I think my Facts have some kind of braking mechanism?

Or is this completely wrong?  Apologies for my lack of knowledge!

My understanding is that SAM is driving the speaker in acceleration under 150 Hz. Which means that it is calculating which voltage needs to be apply instantaneously to get the right acceleration. it will do so within the acceptable envelope of the given speaker.

To illustrate with a extreme example, if you feed the amplifier a SAM profile with a very low efficiency speaker but supporting a lot of watts, it can, even under very low volume, apply very high power that would shred apart a much higher efficiency speaker.

Jean-Marie

Thanks Jean-Marie. In my logic the SAM adjustment is surely relative to the signal, and not the efficiency - that would be taken care of by increasing the amplifier volume/power output? I would imagine all SAM profiles to be in the same kind of orders of magnitude? I could be completely wrong but I find it hard to believe an incorrect SAM profile could shred a speaker at normal listening levels.

But I've been wrong before (many times of course), and its not something I'm going to leap to try on my own speakers…. (although I am now very curious…. my Facts could use a little extra bass punch)

[Jean-Marie]

My concerns would be the same as those of Jean-Marie of damage if applying a SAM profile wildly inappropriate for your speakers.

I just picked up on this and am curious as to what SAM does that might harm a different model speaker?

Isn't a Devialet running SAM pretty much the only amplifier that has awareness of the speakers drivers and their limits, and so a speaker has to be able to stand pretty much whatever is thrown at it - assuming someones manning the volume and is vaguely using common sense.  I think my Facts have some kind of braking mechanism?

Or is this completely wrong?  Apologies for my lack of knowledge!

My understanding is that SAM is driving the speaker in acceleration under 150 Hz. Which means that it is calculating which voltage needs to be apply instantaneously to get the right acceleration. it will do so within the acceptable envelope of the given speaker.

To illustrate with a extreme example, if you feed the amplifier a SAM profile with a very low efficiency speaker but supporting a lot of watts, it can, even under very low volume, apply very high power that would shred apart a much higher efficiency speaker.

Jean-Marie

Thanks Jean-Marie.  In my logic the SAM adjustment is surely relative to the signal, and not the efficiency - that would be taken care of by increasing the amplifier volume/power output?  I would imagine all SAM profiles to be in the same kind of orders of magnitude?  I could be completely wrong but I find it hard to believe an incorrect SAM profile could shred a speaker at normal listening levels.

But I've been wrong before (many times of course), and its not something I'm going to leap to try on my own speakers…. (although I am now very curious…. my Facts could use a little extra bass punch)

I probably was confused in my explanations.

Please consider the following though experiment: speaker A and B have the same motor (coil and magnet) but A is having a membrane twice as heavy as B.

to get the same acceleration would you need to apply twice as much power to A than to B. And SAM would therefore apply twice as much power to A than to B for the same signal for the same attenuation.

Therefore if you apply profile A to speaker B, you would end up having twice the desired acceleration which could end up being damaging.

Jean-Marie

[Manoet]

While I totally agree with Jean-Marie's extreme example it appears the people here who are actively participating in running SAM profiles for nonSAM speakers are, not just largely but an overwhelmingly 100% of the time choosing SAM profiles that closely mimic their speaker specifications rather than some extreme example. Interestingly, if this thread is any indication most that have dabbled at this have discovered profiles they like better than pre-SAM. We can argue many things, however success isn't one of them! And while that doesn't preclude catastrophic failure I think it relegates it to near obscurity save for a blatant/flagrant abuse of the volume knob which coincidentally would likely produce an identical result on any speaker abused similarly. Not because of any inappropriate SAM profile but altogether in spite of it!

After taking a day off from the risk of doom & gloom yesterday due to release of 8.1 you can bet I'm back in the hunt via fine-tuning my current misguided albeit wonderful SAM experiment or seeking others today. Long as I don't fly too close to the sun I suspect things are gonna be fine, and for a very long time.

[Manoet]

Wish I understood better what exactly happened between 7.1.3 and 8.1 (a, b or c) that would cause such a dramatic impact on a particular SAM profile. While the SQ between 7/8 FW to me seems minimal-to-barely perceptible if any, the SAM profile in my particular situation had to be lowered to 44 in 8.1 (a, b or c) from the 92 I was using in 7.1.3 to achieve identical or close as short-term memory permits to my original setting. I've wracked my brain but nothing makes sense. I've seen others also lowered their SAM setting in 8.1 but that doesn't help me understand 'why.' I realize knowing is kinda like a dog chasing a car... whatta I do with it if I catch it!?! But still curious. Anyone?

[Hifi_swlon]

Maybe they increased (doubled?) the max available?

I run at 100% on 7.1.1 with pmc Fact 8's and would gladly use more.....