What to judiciously invest in next to improve SQ?

[zambie]

Soliciting advice from the devialet family here ... am sure many of you have been in similar boats thinking about where best/ next to invest to get your rigs to sound just like you want it to!

My journey's been quite basic - have a pair of speakers that aren't the greatest in quality - but they're half decent (martin logan 60xts) compared to some of the setups I've seen here. Personally, I like their forward/ aggressive sound signature and lovely tweeters. In comes the Devialet 220pro/ ci that I'm looking to have as the center of my audio engine for years to come. Haven't invested in audiophile "brand" cables/ interconnects yet - they are half decent - but not audiophile named branded cables. Play everything from my mac through Devialet AIR over ethernet. Intend to keep my setup simple as much as possible

Reading and researching, seems like I have the following areas to potentially improve:

• Power - currently use a rudimentary panamax mr4000 conditioner - been contemplating about whether a power regenerator (e.g .the ps audio powerplant 10 or 12 look like good upgrades to open up the soundstage & dynamics) - potentially set me back by $5000
  
• Power cable to the devialet - currently using stock audioquest power cable - contemplating either cerious technologies/ synergistic research atmosphere devialet spec - potentially set me back by $1000
  
• Speaker Interconnects - haven't thought about these - quite happy with the existing set I have
  
• Transport layer - Ethernet/ USB cables/ AES/ EBU - don't use any audiophile "branded" companies. Use offbrand shielded ethernet cable from router to the devialet - has been handling well.
  
• Music playback - currently use a mac and use a pretty good software called vox to play my music through AIR - ethernet. Just from a SQ standpoint - will Roon make things better (thinking upsampling/ filters?) - $500 for software. Potentially $2500? for Roon Nucleus (phewwww!)
  
• Source - Using a mac - are there better options to house and playback my music - NAS/ Roon Nucleus/ NUC/ others? Potentially $1500+
  
• Room correction - won't be able to get any physical diffusers - but might be open to a room correction software - e.g. dirac?
  
• Others - isolation/ vibration control, 20amp power supply?
  

With so many potential areas that might be available to improve, what is the most logical place to focus on next from an investment standpoint on maximizing improvement on SQ and three dimensionality of the music in the above? This is an expensive hobby   ... Any thoughts on where you'd focus on improving SQ if you were in my position?

[Axel]

If you invested in a NUC running Roon, you would have points 4,5 and 6 covered. You can get a cheap, powerful NUC made up for you for not very much money (see here:https://devialetchat.com/Thread-AudioLinux-NUC)  and could initially get a 1 year Roon license to see if you like that way forward (I think you would like it very much!). The most expensive item is potentially the power conditioner, you could then audition various cable configurations to suit your pocket/taste.

[Pim]

The best money I ever spent was on 'Get Better Sound' by Jim Smith. It's only US$35.- and it gives you some great insight into how to get the best out of your system without changing any equipment. I would go as far as to say that unless you have set up your equipment the best it can be in the room you're not going to get anywhere near as much improvement out of whatever it is you acquire.

If you have money burning in your pockets and you can't do room treatment; speakers first, then the source.

[David A]

You said "this is an expensive hobby" and you didn't mention a budget for improvements. That makes it hard to offer suggestions.

You identified 8 areas but not a way of conceptualising those areas. I'd break things down into 2 broad areas, the system and things you can do to improve that, and how you make the most of the system and what you can do to improve that. The system refers to your components, software, and cables while the "how you make the most of the system" area concerns things like vibration control, room acoustics/electronic room correction, vibration control, and I'd probably consider power cables and power conditioning as part of this area. I'd leave speaker cables and data cables/interconnects as part of the system area.

You can improve anything but it makes sense to start with whatever you think is most holding your system back at the moment. In my experience that's usually one or more things that will help you make the most of the system you've got rather than something in the system itself. Then it comes down to what you can do with whatever budget you've got. If you've got limited budget then I'd simply start with something that will cost you time and a bit of physical effort and nothing else, room and speaker setup. Start experimenting with where you put your speakers and listening position because that can make a really major difference to your sound quality. Even if you're planning of adding physical room treatments or electronic room correction at some point in the future, you'll get better results with those things if you've got the speakers and listening position set up well in the first place. Read your speaker manufacturer's recommendations for setup and start with that. One of the things I find really important is symmetrical placement of the speakers with respect to the side walls and the wall behind them. Each speaker should the the same distance from the wall behind them at the very least and, if possible, the same distance from their nearest side wall though that isn't always possible. Try to ensure that the distance to the wall behind and the wall to the side aren't exact multiples of each other. If you can place each speaker one quarter of the width of the room from the side wall you can cancel a lot of the room mode associated with the width of the room which can help a lot in the bass region. Where you sit will also affect the bass response you hear so experiment a bit with moving the listening position backwards and forwards a bit from your starting point in order to find the spot with the best/smoothest bass response. Since you've got electrostatic speakers, try angling the speakers towards the listening position so that the plane of the electrostatic panel points towards the side wall first reflection point. Electrostatics have a null at the side in their radiation pattern and angling them so that the plane of the panel is pointed towards the side wall first reflection point will minimise the strength of the side wall first reflection. You're probably going to have to experiment a bit to find the best location for the speakers and listening position but it's worth the time and effort. Good setup can really bring a system to life.

And you can then put the money you've saved by working on room setup rather than buying/upgrading something aside and save a bit more so that when you come to make your next improvement you've got a bigger budget for that.

[Wdw]

I

If you invested in a NUC running Roon, you would have points 4,5 and 6 covered. You can get a cheap, powerful NUC made up for you for not very much money (see here:https://devialetchat.com/Thread-AudioLinux-NUC)  and could initially get a 1 year Roon license to see if you like that way forward (I think you would like it very much!). The most expensive item is potentially the power conditioner, you could then audition various cable configurations to suit your pocket/taste.

+1 without a doubt...a NUC with ROON ROCK...you can build one yourself quite easily ...  I simply followed the tutorials on-line and had one running in a few hours.
Cords = Audioquest NRG Z3 - check out the thread here
Isolation = three Orea Bronze footers - check out the thread here

do these three things then sit back and enjoy...power groomer/conditioner/regenerator comes later....I suggest AQ Niagara but there are many here that like the PS Audio.

[zambie]

If you invested in a NUC running Roon, you would have points 4,5 and 6 covered. You can get a cheap, powerful NUC made up for you for not very much money (see here:https://devialetchat.com/Thread-AudioLinux-NUC)  and could initially get a 1 year Roon license to see if you like that way forward (I think you would like it very much!). The most expensive item is potentially the power conditioner, you could then audition various cable configurations to suit your pocket/taste.

Axel - appreciate the thought here. Agree that the NUC does appear to be a very attractive option as a source. The 1 year Roon license seems to be a good add on. It's staggering how much some of these music server/ streamers are if you go the branded path. My initial assumption is that this would be the last cog of the wheel where I'd manage to extract improvements in SQ (e.g. mac running room over Roon AIR v/s NUC running Roon ...)

[zambie]

The best money I ever spent was on 'Get Better Sound' by Jim Smith. It's only US$35.- and it gives you some great insight into how to get the best out of your system without changing any equipment. I would go as far as to say that unless you have set up your equipment the best it can be in the room you're not going to get anywhere near as much improvement out of whatever it is you acquire.

If you have money burning in your pockets and you can't do room treatment; speakers first, then the source.

Thanks Pim - it's good to have someone to keep things grounded - thank you for the advice since the time I joined. I couldn't agree more that probably the biggest thing that's being compromised is my current room setup. I have a 13' x 25' that hosts both my living space as well as dining space - and am  not able to leverage either of the 13' walls to place the speakers against. I've ofcourse brought the speakers 1.5' in so that it's got a bit of space to breathe. That leaves about 11.5' with my couch against the back wall - with my speakers approximately 10' apart from each other. Does create some issues for sure. I am going to take a look at the book you mentioned ... Agreed - I have some big room setup issues to overcome!

[Wdw]

If you invested in a NUC running Roon, you would have points 4,5 and 6 covered. You can get a cheap, powerful NUC made up for you for not very much money (see here:https://devialetchat.com/Thread-AudioLinux-NUC)  and could initially get a 1 year Roon license to see if you like that way forward (I think you would like it very much!). The most expensive item is potentially the power conditioner, you could then audition various cable configurations to suit your pocket/taste.

Axel - appreciate the thought here. Agree that the NUC does appear to be a very attractive option as a source. The 1 year Roon license seems to be a good add on. It's staggering how much some of these music server/ streamers are if you go the branded path. My initial assumption is that this would be the last cog of the wheel where I'd manage to extract improvements in SQ (e.g. mac running room over Roon AIR v/s NUC running Roon ...)

Have to disagree.  We had a reasonably optimized Mac Mini with an internal SSD and linear supply with a nice Nordost power cord but a Auralic Aries quickly blew it away. No contest.  No comparison to the Mini...Shortly thereafter a ROON ROCK was installed and everything further improved...these front end things are far more important than, say, a Ted Denny power cord or similar.  IMHO

[zambie]

You said "this is an expensive hobby" and you didn't mention a budget for improvements. That makes it hard to offer suggestions.

You identified 8 areas but not a way of conceptualising those areas. I'd break things down into 2 broad areas, the system and things you can do to improve that, and how you make the most of the system and what you can do to improve that. The system refers to your components, software, and cables while the "how you make the most of the system"  area concerns things like vibration control, room acoustics/electronic room correction, vibration control, and I'd probably consider power cables and power conditioning as part of this area. I'd leave speaker cables and data cables/interconnects as part of the system area.

You can improve anything but it makes sense to start with whatever you think is most holding your system back at the moment. In my experience that's usually one or more things that will help you make the most of the system you've got rather than something in the system itself. Then it comes down to what you can do with whatever budget you've got. If you've got limited budget then I'd simply start with something that will cost you time and a bit of physical effort and nothing else, room and speaker setup. Start experimenting with where you put your speakers and listening position because that can make a really major difference to your sound quality. Even if you're planning of adding physical room treatments or electronic room correction at some point in the future, you'll get better results with those things if you've got the speakers and listening position set up well in the first place. Read your speaker manufacturer's recommendations for setup and start with that. One of the things I find really important is symmetrical placement of the speakers with respect to the side walls and the wall behind them. Each speaker should the the same distance from the wall behind them at the very least and, if possible, the same distance from their nearest side wall though that isn't always possible. Try to ensure that the distance to the wall behind and the wall to the side aren't exact multiples of each other. If you can place each speaker one quarter of the width of the room from the side wall you can cancel a lot of the room mode associated with the width of the room which can help a lot in the bass region. Where you sit will also affect the bass response you hear so experiment a bit with moving the listening position backwards and forwards a bit from your starting point in order to find the spot with the best/smoothest bass response. Since you've got electrostatic speakers, try angling the speakers towards the listening position so that the plane of the electrostatic panel points towards the side wall first reflection point. Electrostatics have a null at the side in their radiation pattern and angling them  so that the plane of the panel is pointed towards the side wall first reflection point will minimise the strength of the side wall first reflection. You're probably going to have to  experiment a bit to find the best location for the speakers and listening position but it's worth the time and effort. Good setup can really bring a system to life.

And you can then put the money you've saved by working on room setup rather than buying/upgrading something aside and save a bit more so that when you come to make your next improvement you've got a bigger budget for that.

To be honest - I wasn't focussing on the price side of things, but more along the lines of what are the pieces in the audio chain + components that impact SQ more than others based on experiences that all of you have. That said I like how you've conceptualized things. It is difficult to say what's holding the sound back when one's not aware of what other things are capable of improving - hence the question.
Surprisingly enough - my Martin Logans aren't the electrostatic kind. At this point - I'm quite certain my room situation is quite far from ideal and is definitely impacting the overall sound output.Point taken on finetuning speaker position and angle. The piece I can't seem to wrap my head around is that certain audiophile recordings e.g. some of Chesky's productions are absolutely great and have a great sound stage compared to a lot of "mainstream" recordings of rock bands - which seem to be much more of a "recording" than an actual presence if you know what I mean... whether that's a function of the quality of the recording or the setup or both is something i need to comprehensively figure out.

[David A]

There''s huge differences in quality between some recordings and Chesky recordings often have very good sound staging because of the way they're recorded and mixed whereas a lot of "mainstream" recordings as you called them are recorded very differently. Chesky tend to record in an acoustic space like a church with a simple microphone setup whereas many/most "mainstream" recordings are recorded in normal studios, often with artists in isolation booths, often at different times, on a multitrack system and those multiple tracks are then mixed down to stereo, often with a lot of manipulation along the way. That will make for differences.

You want well made recordings to sound great on a good system because they're the sort of source material should sound great. You can't expect less well made recordings to sound equally great and you can't expect badly made recordings to sound great. A good system lets you hear what a recording is,. It lets you hear all of the good things a well made recording brings with it and it lets you hear what's wrong with less well made recordings. In my view what you do is that you do your best to get the most you can out of the best source material you have and you let things fall where they fall with lesser recordings, some will be good but not great, some will be so so and some will quite possibly sound quite bad because they were badly recorded. The old saying about not being able to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear applies.

Regardless of how good or bad a system is, the starting point in my view is getting the most out of it that you can and that starts with setup. Even average systems can sound noticeably better than their owners think if they're set up properly. If you're trying to work out what to do to improve a system, setup is always the first thing in my view and if you've got a good setup and you can really hear what your system is capable of with what you've got, you're in a lot better position to work out what the best thing to do to improve the system further is.

On the other hand, if you don't have things set up properly and you're losing x% of what you could get from the system if you set it up properly then if you go out and spend money and make a change in the system you're probably still going to be losing roughly the same x% because of the poor setup and you may be spending a fair amount of money on a change that doesn't yield as much or any more improvement in sound quality as you could get at no cost if you simply got to work and started doing what you can do to improve the setup of the system you've got, and the work you do on that will continue to be beneficial when you do make other changes later on.