dB indicator flashing red

[Rufus McDufus]

Probably not related but I've noticed recently that I have to have the volume control set high to achieve normal listening volumes (in my case quite quiet). Typically a classical recording would be 0 to +5dB and rock -10dB or so. This is with SAM or without, playing via AIR from a PC or USB from my Cubox. I contact Devialet and they said it was normal - +38 is possible supposedly. Previously though I can remember typical listening volumes in the -25dB to -15dB range. I wrote a new config and that didn't help either. No changes in my system significant enough to make such a big difference. Speakers are 88dB sensitivity.

[Tony]

I used to see it pre the wattage firmware upgrade on my D170 (or whatever it was) , just on a single Clapton track played fairly loudly... Don't get it now at D200 (watts) so assumed it was a (output) power issue... into ML Ethos

[f1eng]

It is the clipping indicator. I think it may flash at 1 bit below full modulation.The track you were playing was probably one of the (appalling badly recorded IMHO) modern tracks where the signal is hammering up against the limiter.
Worth looking at the level meter page on the display and see if it is getting to clipping.
I do not consider any recording which spends much time "in the red" to be much good SQ wise, personally.
HiFi it ain't.

Do you mean input clipping?  I'm surprised that ethernet AIR would pass a signal to the amp that would cause clipping?  The level meter on the louder passages of that track is permanently in the red.

I certainly agree with your comments about the bad mastering of many modern recordings.

I think Air just sends the file it is given. If the file has full modulation on it it will be sent and the orange indication will flash.
If your volume control is below 0dB I can not think of any other explanation.
Does the indicator flash on the app as well as the main display? If it does I will look at mine when playing some of my most loudness pushed recordings to see if I get it too. I can't see the main display from my listening chair.

[PhilP]

It is the clipping indicator. I think it may flash at 1 bit below full modulation.The track you were playing was probably one of the (appalling badly recorded IMHO) modern tracks where the signal is hammering up against the limiter.
Worth looking at the level meter page on the display and see if it is getting to clipping.
I do not consider any recording which spends much time "in the red" to be much good SQ wise, personally.
HiFi it ain't.

Do you mean input clipping?  I'm surprised that ethernet AIR would pass a signal to the amp that would cause clipping?  The level meter on the louder passages of that track is permanently in the red.

I certainly agree with your comments about the bad mastering of many modern recordings.

I think Air just sends the file it is given. If the file has full modulation on it it will be sent and the orange indication will flash.
If your volume control is below 0dB I can not think of any other explanation.
Does the indicator flash on the app as well as the main display? If it does I will look at mine when playing some of my most loudness pushed recordings to see if I get it too. I can't see the main display from my listening chair.

Ok, that makes sense.

Yes, the indicator on the app flashes as well - in fact that's how I first noticed it.

EDIT: I just checked the DR Loudness Wars site and the album I was listening to has the lowest scores for dynamic range of any that have ever checked. the best track scores 3/20...

[f1eng]

The loudness wars site reminds me of how frustrating it is to use a hifi nowadays.
It seems almost completely pointless to own a quality hifi system when so very much of the music being made available to listen to over the last few years is on such very poor quality recordings.
What is worse (IMHO) the LP release seems to always have a higher dynamic range than the CD which is monumentally irritating when CD has a considerably higher dynamic range capability than LP. And the LP is ludicrously priced and fragile.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahh!

[PhilP]

The loudness wars site reminds me of how frustrating it is to use a hifi nowadays.
It seems almost completely pointless to own a quality hifi system when so very much of the music being made available to listen to over the last few years is on such very poor quality recordings.
What is worse (IMHO) the LP release seems to always have a higher dynamic range than the CD which is monumentally irritating when CD has a considerably higher dynamic range capability than LP. And the LP is ludicrously priced and fragile.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahh!

To me wide dynamic range seems to be the most difficult aspect of the hi-fi recording and playback chain to achieve.  Detail resolution in decent hi-fi systems is generally excellent in fact I think you can probably hear more detail in music on a hi-fi than you can in many live performances but very few/no? recordings and hi-fi systems get close to the dynamic range that you experience in a concert.

This is probably why Naim equipment is so popular - as a manufacturer they seem to focus on leading edge dynamics (using large transformers and capacitors) making music sound alive and exciting albeit at the expense of detail resolution and neutrality at least in their lower-mid level kit.  The great thing about Devialet is that the dynamics are there but so is the detail and lack of colouration - throughout the range.

Digital re-mastering often seems to focus on making recordings appear more-detailed (i.e. 'better') than the original but this is often accompanied by reduced DR which actually makes them sound 'worse' which is why I generally don't buy them any more.  I will quite often listen to a re-mastered recording via Qobuz just because its interesting to hear what's changed but then go back to the original for any future listening.

Many early CDs had decent DR - some on a par with the vinyl equivalent - but the proportion of new CD recordings with acceptable DR seems much lower whilst DR on new vinyl recordings is still generally very good.  24-bit downloads typically don't have any greater DR than their 16-bit equivalents. Maybe the answer is to buy the vinyl and then digitize it ??

[f1eng]

The loudness wars site reminds me of how frustrating it is to use a hifi nowadays.
It seems almost completely pointless to own a quality hifi system when so very much of the music being made available to listen to over the last few years is on such very poor quality recordings.
What is worse (IMHO) the LP release seems to always have a higher dynamic range than the CD which is monumentally irritating when CD has a considerably higher dynamic range capability than LP. And the LP is ludicrously priced and fragile.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahh!

To me wide dynamic range seems to be the most difficult aspect of the hi-fi recording and playback chain to achieve.  Detail resolution in decent hi-fi systems is generally excellent in fact I think you can probably hear more detail in music on a hi-fi than you can in many live performances but very few/no? recordings and hi-fi systems get close to the dynamic range that you experience in a concert.

This is probably why Naim equipment is so popular - as a manufacturer they seem to focus on leading edge dynamics (using large transformers and capacitors) making music sound alive and exciting albeit at the expense of detail resolution and neutrality at least in their lower-mid level kit.  The great thing about Devialet is that the dynamics are there but so is the detail and lack of colouration - throughout the range.

Digital re-mastering often seems to focus on making recordings appear more-detailed (i.e. 'better') than the original but this is often accompanied by reduced DR which actually makes them sound 'worse' which is why I generally don't buy them any more.  I will quite often listen to a re-mastered recording via Qobuz just because its interesting to hear what's changed but then go back to the original for any future listening.

Many early CDs had decent DR - some on a par with the vinyl equivalent - but the proportion of new CD recordings with acceptable DR seems much lower whilst DR on new vinyl recordings is still generally very good.  24-bit downloads typically don't have any greater DR than their 16-bit equivalents. Maybe the answer is to buy the vinyl and then digitize it ??

I do not agree.
My system is capable of wide dynamic range, and so is the CD standard (96dB).
LP is capable of generally adequate dynamic range (50 to 70 dB depending on equipment). Most pop music has less dynamic range then this. It is not difficult to record or reproduce, IME, at all.

Early CD releases had more dynamic range than LPs because they could. Compression was necessary for most LPs but not for CD. It is now a choice for sound reasons, apparently most people prefer it. Damn it!

Dynamic range compression reveals more detail, since the quiet bits are amplified compared to the average, so the detail is louder.

Some of my finest sounding CDs were amongst the first I bought. The Nimbus recordings using a Calrec sound field microphone are fantastic, IMHO. They were amongst the first CDs available.
The idea that digital is "better" today than at the beginning is completely at variance with my experience. Sure some early digital recordings were not too good, some may even have been done without the anti-aliasing filters (I know people who did this because they did not understand) and will have audible artefacts.
Also a lot of then current amplifier inputs clipped with the 2 volt output standard of CD (needed because of the extra dynamic range available over any domestic analogue medium). Typical cassette and FM tuners had 200mV outputs and that was close to the input limit with some amps.
A lot of the bad experience people had with early digital could well be that their amps were not suited to it and they were listening to clipping on the high modulated parts.

It s truly ludicrous that an inherently dynamic range limited medium, LP has less DR compression than the medium inherently capable of the full dynamic range a domestic system is capable (more than most in fact).

Is it because most people only listen to music whilst travelling where there is a high background noise?

I suppose it keeps people buying LPs at £25 a pop. Madness.

[PhilP]

Of course, the ideal would be for music companies to stop using compression.

Just for interest, these are often-quoted figures for the loudness of various instruments etc.  If these are correct then the 96dB range of red-book CD clearly isn't adequate for reproducing the full range of an orchestra. Though I suspect that I would be happy with "only" 96dB range at home

Normal piano practice                        60 -70dB
Fortissimo Singer, 3'                         70dB
Chamber music, small auditorium 75 - 85dB
Piano Fortissimo                                84 - 103dB
Violin                                                82 - 92dB
Cello                                                85 -111dB
Oboe                                                95 -112dB
Flute                                         92 -103dB
Piccolo                                         90 -106dB
Clarinet                                         85 - 114dB
French horn                                 90 - 106dB
Trombone                                        85 - 114dB
Tympani & bass drum                        106dB
Walkman on 5/10                        94dB
Symphonic music peak                120 - 137dB
Amplifier, rock, 4-6'                        120dB
Rock music peak                                150dB

[f1eng]

Of course, the ideal would be for music companies to stop using compression.

Just for interest, these are often-quoted figures for the loudness of various instruments etc.  If these are correct then the 96dB range of red-book CD clearly isn't adequate for reproducing the full range of an orchestra. Though I suspect that I would be happy with "only" 96dB range at home

Normal piano practice                        60 -70dB
Fortissimo Singer, 3'                         70dB
Chamber music, small auditorium       75 - 85dB
Piano Fortissimo                                84 - 103dB
Violin                                                82 - 92dB
Cello                                                85 -111dB
Oboe                                                95 -112dB
Flute                                                92 -103dB
Piccolo                                            90 -106dB
Clarinet                                          85 - 114dB
French horn                                      90 - 106dB
Trombone                                        85 - 114dB
Tympani & bass drum                        106dB
Walkman on 5/10                        94dB
Symphonic music peak                120 - 137dB
Amplifier, rock, 4-6'                        120dB
Rock music peak                                150dB

Are you getting confused by the meaning of dynamic range? It is the difference between the loudest and the quietest sound in a musical work. The SPL of the quiet playing needs to be known as well as the loudest to know the dynamic range.
Whilst at an orchestral concert the loudest can indeed be over 100dB, at a concert that big the quietest moments of music will probably be around 60dB, so the dynamic range will rarely be more than 50dB.
I am glad I have not been to a rock concert at 150dB! The threshold of pain is around 120dB! but generally rock music has less dynamic range than classical, so even if the painful peaks were 150dB the equally painful quieter bits would probably still exceed 120dB, so 16 bit audio will still be plenty.
The difficulty will be, as ever, the choice of microphone.

I think I have a pretty quiet listening room. About 30dB background (40dB when the heating is running) 96dB on top of that is 126 to 136dB, which is not only hearing damage after a relatively short time but way outside the capability of the analogue side of any domestic sound system. So the dynamic range capability of CD is way more than is needed for even the biggest dynamics of classical music, which is just about possible to get on LP too, though it is very, very difficult to get the levels set accurately enough for LP. A bit too high and there is mistracking on loud bits, a bit too low and the quiet bits are ruined by hiss. 16 bit digital is easier, 24 bit digital requires no skill at all
The maximum loudness of an orchestral concert is very loud at the conductor's position, thankfully not as loud where I sit. I have been making recordings for over 50 years, and now I have an app on my phone, sometimes measure the loudness and dynamic range at concerts. The peaks are frequently well over 100dB but the dynamic range rarely more than 50dB, even for Mahler and his ilk, less for classical period composers.
I am not familiar with the numbers you quote, but the singer one is not correct (I record classical singers mainly). At the post-course concert at a singers workshop last year one of the sopranos was registering 90dB at my listening position 1/3 way down the small auditorium.
The dynamic range of older non classical recordings I have checked (years ago) are more like 25dB iirc, not awful like some of the loudness war casualties, but still trivial for 16bit audio to encompass.

[Riddo]

Probably not related but I've noticed recently that I have to have the volume control set high to achieve normal  listening volumes (in my case quite quiet). Typically a classical recording would be 0 to +5dB and rock -10dB or so. This is with SAM or without, playing via AIR from a PC or USB from my Cubox. I contact Devialet and they said it was normal - +38 is possible supposedly. Previously though I can remember typical listening volumes in the -25dB to -15dB range.  I wrote a new config and that didn't help either. No changes in my system significant enough to make such a big difference. Speakers are 88dB sensitivity.

Because I use Acourate filtered music where the louder frequency ranges are truncated to achieve a relatively "flat" target curve at the listening position, I usually listen at between +4 and +15. I never see clipping on the display, but the Devialet gets quite hot after a few hours (59-62). The only time I've noticed the volume lower than usual it's because the PC volume control is down - obviously not the case with you because of the two different sources.