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+--- Thread: 220 to 440 ROI (/Thread-220-to-440-ROI)
RE: 220 to 440 ROI - Bertie - 29-May-2025
(29-May-2025, 14:05)audio_engr Wrote:(29-May-2025, 02:44)ray1234 Wrote: I am using a D400 with Kanta 2 with a SVS PB1000 Pro, I can tell you with the right setup, this combo's detail and transparency is not easy to match with any other system.
For two S812, it depends on your room. Is there anything in particular you are not satisfied with the sound? In most cases, two subwoofers are better than one because it helps to reduce the room mode effects. However, is there any point in the bass region you are not satisfied with now? if not, what is there to improve?
Mind you, you have to do some work with the inputs to make the Devialet sound great ...... I use computer as source and I am using a 10mhz clock connected to DDC which then links to the D400 via AES, the same 10mhz clock also clocks the network switch, the network cable also goes through FMC. As Devialet is all-in-one design, the only tweak possible is with the source. The DDC apparently passes the clock signal into the Devialet via AES, and this gives a marked improvement in the level of details Devailet can produce. With a clock, the Devialet is producing details in line with the top DAC available today, which I find quite amazing for a technology developed 10 years ago.
For tuning, Focal speakers are excellent for air, treble details and bass resolution. Devialet is also excellent in bass production. I don't think even Gryphon is able to beat the Devialet's bass resolution if Devialet is set up correctly. Gryphon however is going to produce a mid range with more texture and less 'thin' sound, because with lots of air it is easy for Focal speakers to sound 'thin' and lack of texture. If using Devialet, focus your tuning and cable matching on regaining the texture. When it is done correctly, the Focal/Devialet produces details that are even more than some Wilson Audio systems. Focal is never going to produce the texture like Wilson Audio speakers, but neither is Wilson Audio speakers able to produce as airy a soundstage as Focal. On my system, I think the texture is still acceptable with Devialet D400.
I have to agree with you 100% on what you said about your D400. I use 440-Pro (earlier D400) and also an external streamer. Devialets do require quite a bit of hard work to set them up well and in complete sync with the rest of the system. And when done well, it is indeed a tough system to overtake. I've been thinking/trying to replace my 440-Pro for the last 2 years and have tried other integrated amps/ Pre-power combos but the Devialets are always so close to their competition or even head-to-head with them, I am still continuing to have them. Once again - I do need to mention that setting them up, understanding their every weak areas and addressing them is of utmost importance. Once achieved, it's quite a "killer kit".
I think tweaking to produce my kind of ‘synergy’ is compelling bait. I loved the Cambridge Edge gear that I’m selling now and it’s sound was perhaps closer to my ideal in many respects but the 220 has given me a weird and wonderful soundstage that throws female backing vocals out into both sides of my 13’ x 15’ room. It’s also given me such bass control and power. I can’t envision anything this side of the euro lottery improving on it. I know that my system doesn’t ‘need’ to be a 440 but I’m sure the bottom end and that soundstage and magic with breathy females in the room will still be here. Who knows, maybe I’ll dip my toe into the Diablo ecosystem at some point, but I’n not done messing about just yet.
RE: 220 to 440 ROI - Delija - 29-May-2025
@audio_engr
How much are you willing to invest into new amp/preamp/DAC/streamer? 🙃
RE: 220 to 440 ROI - ray1234 - 30-May-2025
(29-May-2025, 10:04)thumb5 Wrote:(29-May-2025, 02:44)ray1234 Wrote: ...The DDC apparently passes the clock signal into the Devialet via AES, and this gives a marked improvement in the level of details Devailet can produce.
Bear in mind that with an AES connection, there is no separate clock signal; the clock is embedded in the data. That means the source is in control of the audio sample clock and the Devialet has to extract the sample clock from the data, using an internal phase-locked loop or similar mechanism. This is generally considered to be an inferior approach to the Devialet being in control of the audio sample clock, as it would be in the case of USB or Ethernet inputs (for example). Whether or not it produces better sound quality is as always down to your ears and preference.
Absolutely, having clock passed onto the Devialet via AES is of course not as ideal as having clock connecting directly to the Devialet. However, given Devialet does not have a clock input option, this is the only option that works.... and on my own system, this works quite well.
The resolution and separation after the clock connection is on a totally different level compared to without a clock. Given Devialet is a product 10 years ago, the attention to quality of the clock inside the Devialet is probably not as much as DACs nowadays - that explains why even with an inferior AES connection, connecting a quality clock still improves quite a lot on resolution and details.
(29-May-2025, 15:17)Bertie Wrote: Who knows, maybe I’ll dip my toe into the Diablo ecosystem at some point, but I’n not done messing about just yet.
If you so decide on Diablo, get the 333 instead of 300, 333 sounds a lot more refined than 300.
RE: 220 to 440 ROI - audio_engr - 30-May-2025
(29-May-2025, 16:27)Delija Wrote: @audio_engr
How much are you willing to invest into new amp/preamp/DAC/streamer? 🙃
The best I've heard from my B&W 802D3 w/ REL G1-MK2 pair is when powered by an Audionet Humboldt & Mola Mola Tambaqui and that'll be my #1 choice for the end-game, Fall back at #2 would be Gryphon Diablo 333 / 300.
RE: 220 to 440 ROI - Bertie - 30-May-2025
(30-May-2025, 14:11)audio_engr Wrote:So you’re currently running a 440 and aspire to the Diablo. Might I ask what improvements you’re expecting from that? I’ve got my own strength/weakness matrix but would love to hear yours…(29-May-2025, 16:27)Delija Wrote: @audio_engr
How much are you willing to invest into new amp/preamp/DAC/streamer? 🙃
The best I've heard from my B&W 802D3 w/ REL G1-MK2 pair is when powered by an Audionet Humboldt & Mola Mola Tambaqui and that'll be my #1 choice for the end-game, Fall back at #2 would be Gryphon Diablo 333 / 300.
RE: 220 to 440 ROI - audio_engr - 30-May-2025
(30-May-2025, 14:50)Bertie Wrote:(30-May-2025, 14:11)audio_engr Wrote: The best I've heard from my B&W 802D3 w/ REL G1-MK2 pair is when powered by an Audionet Humboldt & Mola Mola Tambaqui and that'll be my #1 choice for the end-game, Fall back at #2 would be Gryphon Diablo 333 / 300.So you’re currently running a 440 and aspire to the Diablo. Might I ask what improvements you’re expecting from that? I’ve got my own strength/weakness matrix but would love to hear yours…
Great question!
I'm inching slowly into retirement with cpl of years to go. And 70% of my music is classical, rest being some acoustic jazz, blues and rock. I've had the D400 from 2016 that moved to the 440-Pro CI in 2018. In the 9 yrs of my living with the Devialets, the one big weakness that I've been battling is their lack of midbass-to-midrange density, harmonic richness and the overall wholesome textures that I so vividly look for being a violinist from age 5 and deep into classical music. Warmth is essential to me without veiling details. I've tackled this issue using digital EQ but it's a patchwork with little or no ill effects and I'm living with it so far.
I must say the Devialets have been outrageously fantastic and personally I love the 1792 DAC chip for its musicality (having home auditioned many greats from dCS, Playback Designs, EMM/Meitner, Grimm etc). However - at the end of the day (and my day is coming sometime soon i.e. retirement), I would like to settle down with something that puts a smile on my face. Having auditioned many Amps & Amps w/ DACs, Audionet's Humboldt to me was a bullet-proof item built to last a lifetime. But its cost is horrendously high hence am looking at pristine Used. And at Humboldt's Used prices, Gryphon Diablo 333 is available as new, Used Diablo 300 being even cheaper.
Devialet as a company over the years has shied away from support for their Expert range of products. So far I've been lucky with no major failures but who knows what Devialet will do especially after starting their 'new Astra line'. Hence, in time and when the opportunity is right, I intend to swing towards another alternative that has a long term reputation of strong support along with impeccable build quality.
And finally, Devialet Dual-Monos have a flaw. I connect them using the RCA to AES digital link (that I strongly feel should have been AES-to-AES). And (it's a feeling though I may be wrong) that the channel that is fed with the AES input sounds marginally better that the other with the RCA output. Others here feel free to comment.
RE: 220 to 440 ROI - Delija - 31-May-2025
(30-May-2025, 16:07)audio_engr Wrote: ...the one big weakness that I've been battling is their lack of midbass-to-midrange density, harmonic richness and the overall wholesome textures that I so vividly look for being a violinist from age 5 and deep into classical music. Warmth is essential to me without veiling details. I've tackled this issue using digital EQ but it's a patchwork with little or no ill effects and I'm living with it so far.
That's exactly the reason why I have upgraded from 440 Pro to Simaudio Moon 861/891 combo.
It has all the qualities of Devialet raised to upper level + more natural sound with more fluidity, more vivid sound / considerably more richness of tone / harmonics, better texture, more color.
RE: 220 to 440 ROI - Vivialet - 31-May-2025
50k vs 15k, it should be better. In most cases it is the room/speaker combination that makes the sound. In a first step I would measure the frequency response at your listening seat.
Maybe a subwoofer is a better upgrade and much cheaper.
RE: 220 to 440 ROI - Delija - 31-May-2025
If you are referring to me, I have 2x Perlisten D215s in my system.
It's pretty obvious that the Moon is much pricier than Devialet, but some people here are saying there is nothing better than Devialet even in absolut terms - not considering the price at all. That's just not true. For its price, especially used, Expert is still a great buy. But, as said, if you want Devialet to play at its best - you still need to invest into external streamer, cables, etc... Once you go that way, you are escaping from Expert's main idea - all-in-one.
RE: 220 to 440 ROI - audio_engr - 31-May-2025
(31-May-2025, 12:25)Delija Wrote: If you are referring to me, I have 2x Perlisten D215s in my system.
It's pretty obvious that the Moon is much pricier than Devialet, but some people here are saying there is nothing better than Devialet even in absolut terms - not considering the price at all. That's just not true. For its price, especially used, Expert is still a great buy. But, as said, if you want Devialet to play at its best - you still need to invest into external streamer, cables, etc... Once you go that way, you are escaping from Expert's main idea - all-in-one.
Indeed - Devialet's Expert as a stand-alone is good value for its money. But in order to raise the listening experience several notches above with the Expert line, one has to address outside that one-box. And when you look at such a setup, costs keep piling up. Today - there're several integrated Amp options and also Pre/Power options that overtakes the aging Expert that was at one time "the king". And if I were to take Devialet's Astra pricing, other competitive products are a much better buy.