Bass response - how deep should my speakers go for a lifelike sound at home?

[windler]

I found this interesting 


http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/showt...nd-at-home

[Antoine]

LOL...cult leader Alan Shaw...I only read the first line and stopped reading. I guess he still doesn't sell subwoofers or full range loudspeakers.

I want en even 20Hz - 20kHz response not some bass hump somewhere between 60-100Hz he makes his loudspeakers produce to give a nice romantic warm sound and merely the -sense- of full bass reproduction.

We can also -feel- low frequency sound BTW.

edit: everyone please ignore my post if it offends you. I'm only half serious and personally can't stand A.S. or his cult followers!

[Petter]

I did read somewhere that it was mentioned he dident like Devialet to Sam "his" speakers ?

that said i like Harbeth a lot

[ErikM]

Not a fan of Shaw.. He comes off as pompous and a know it all..

[f1eng]

Not a fan of Shaw.. He comes off as pompous and a know it all..

He seems to me to be an experienced and very knowledgeable (he should be given how many years it has been his full time job rather than part time hobby) chap who is exasperated by some of the more ridiculous foo believed in by some hifi extremists.
IMHO he is one of the few sane voices in the business not prone to profiteering from some of the fashions in the way that some other suppliers do.

I like the P3 series, but find the bass overpowering and slow in the active 40s I have on loan at the moment.

[AaronG]

They should go as deep as the ocean and as high as the mountains.

[completeluxury]

f1eng so do you agree with his statement that subwoofers are completely unecessary in a listening room then?

it makes more sense to me to use subwoofers to about 80 hz using a cone that is properly sized to handle it rather than use standard speakers down to 40 hz like setups without subs.

[f1eng]

Yes for music, no for home theatre. The sound level for home theatre is rarely achievable with affordable stereo speakers even when they go deep enough.
Listen to the examples on the linked page to get an idea for yourself.

I used to think otherwise but when I ordered my Goldmund Epilog 1&2 the Epilog 1 came first and I used them on their own for a couple of months, admittedly they go to a fairly low 34Hz -3dB point, but when the Epilog 2 arrived the improvement was in power handling and dynamics, the extra bass was not obvious except on a very few organ tracks. The bass speed and lack of overhang was one of the key features of the Epilogs (and is very much more natural than any of the thin wall BBC type speakers I have heard) so I was still chuffed, but for music the Epilog 1 is plenty, though just discontinued

Mind you I listen almost exclusively to classical music, albeit at concert hall levels, rather than electronic pop.

I take your point about the bigger cones, but in a well engineered enclosure a 8" unit can go low enough for most music IME, and as long as it has a linear long throw magnetic circuit will be fine. The Epilog 1 has a 6 1/2" unit fwiw and was good, though I haven't played it on its own for almost 20 years...

Nowadays I have the choice between horns, which go down to about 40Hz, or the Epilog 1&2s which go down to 25Hz, frankly the obvious differences between them on music is not the bass!

[Antoine]

Subwoofers are not just about low frequency extension. Subwoofers allow one to even the bass response in a room without compromising optimal main loudspeaker setup. The best spot for a speaker in regard to (for example and not limited to) stereo imaging is hardly ever the best spot for the best bass response.

Low frequencies cause the biggest acoustic troubles (and the hardest to "fix") in most (all!?) rooms but the good thing about them is that below a certain frequency treshold (some say 80Hz, some a bit more or less) the human hearing can't locate the exact origin of low frequencies which makes it possible to place one or more subs and place these at the best spots in a room for LF reproduction while at the same time optimal main LS placement after off loading LF reproduction from these mains.

After having owned multiple full range loudspeakers I today would probably buy smaller loudspeakers with less LF extension and augment them with multiple subwoofers. And these would not all need to go down to the lowest sub bass frequencies!

I think that most people with average musical preferences and average rooms after having heard a proper sub, properly setup so that it blends in well, would prefer to not go back to a regular setup without a sub. (a/one sub can of course be substituted for multiple subs in this sentence).

[f1eng]

Subwoofers are not just about low frequency extension. Subwoofers allow one to even the bass response in a room without compromising optimal main loudspeaker setup. The best spot for a speaker in regard to (for example and not limited to) stereo imaging is hardly ever the best spot for the best bass response.

Low frequencies cause the biggest acoustic troubles (and the hardest to "fix") in most (all!?) rooms but the good thing about them is that below a certain frequency treshold (some say 80Hz, some a bit more or less) the human hearing can't locate the exact origin of low frequencies which makes it possible to place one or more subs and place these at the best spots in a room for LF reproduction while at the same time optimal main LS placement after off loading LF reproduction from these mains.

After having owned multiple full range loudspeakers I today would probably buy smaller loudspeakers with less LF extension and augment them with multiple subwoofers. And these would not all need to go down to the lowest sub bass frequencies!

I think that most people with average musical preferences and average rooms after having heard a proper sub, properly setup so that it blends in well, would prefer to not go back to a regular setup without a sub. (a/one sub can of course be substituted for multiple subs in this sentence).

You are quite right about the bass in room, of course.
Personally I think a single sub is hopeless though, it is impossible to position for good bass in a large part of the room, and if using calculated correction one can only get it reasonably right in one part of the room, and it is very often worse everywhere else.
I tend to agree that having smaller main speakers and 4 subwoofers would probably give the best overall bass even-ness in room, but so far I have heard very, very few speakers or subwoofers which have realistic sounding bass, whether even or not. When I spent a couple of years 20 years ago auditioning speakers with an almost limitless budget I found that realistic bass could be reproduced (I had previously accepted that it was impossible domestically) but very, very few of these very expensive speakers did it.
Plenty of extension was available with all of them at this price, but realistic?, almost none.