Devialet amplifier power ratings and AC mains regenerators

[PhilP]

@Antoine - Thanks for your detailed response. I'm thinking about upgrading my system may try a P3 or P5 at the same time...

[Antoine]

Great PhilP, enjoy the auditioning, I'm curious to know what you think of it!

[JMRC]

That's a very helpful clarification - thanks Antoine.

Presumably you find your P3 totally adequate for powering the 250?  Do you use it to power other components as well?

Yes, I am very happy with the P3, my set sounds better with it. I'm powering not only my 250 with it but also the linear power supply of my music server and even my active subwoofer (1500W peak power usage). During general use total power usage today is 104W. I have to do strange things like turn up the volume to really uncomfortable levels to let that number rise significantly.

Please remember on average/typically we only need 1W of power off the binding post to produce around 90dB SPL from a single loudspeaker. Some loudspeakers are of course more, or less efficient.

This makes more sense to me... but just a LOT!

Here is the response that I got from Devialet Support when enquiring about the power consumption of my D400s:

"Dear Sir,
Thank you for your message.
The unit consumes at least 600W in continuous, and 3000W peak. But it depends as you can imagine of the type of sound you listen too.
Also, please note that it is not a consumption in watts per channel, but rather per device."

The stated rating is the same for the D250 as for each D400 monoblock.

In my 30 years pursuing the audio holy grail, I have gone down this road many times, including a PS audio 1000, and there is only one way for you to tell, and that is to listen for yourself, but I can say that I have never heard a system with state of the art sound that has an active device between the amp(s) and the wall.

There is one device that I might try for my amps made by Torus (Plitron) Power , but this device is rated at 7200VA continuous power output (30 amps x 120 volts x 2 'zones') with a 240v balanced 30 amp input.  This is almost 5 time the RMS power rating of PS audio's most ambitious effort.  It also supplies 400 amps peak for 20 ms.  This device is untouchable in terms of current delivery, with the exception of their own higher power devices and with the possible exception of the Isotek Titan.  Plitron also makes tons of OEM power supplies for some very high end amplifiers.

If you haven't tried the configuration I have suggested, please do.  If the PS audio is better to your ear in every way, especially with respect to micro and macro dynamics, plug the D250 back into the PP and you're good to go.  But if you hear anything negative with the PS audio, you're better to leave the D straight into the wall and work on the system from other avenues.  Sometimes you need to take one step back in order to take two steps forward.

As always, let your ears be the judge.

Now really, my hijacking days are over.  

Kerry

That reply of Devialet really is THE biggest bull shit (pardon my French ) I've ever seen them write!! I'd write back and ask for an explanation by an educated engineer, not the interpretation of the specs by a 1st level support employee. A "minimal" of 600W power usage continuously...if wasn't so sad it would be funny.

Again what the numbers mean is that the internal PSU of a Devialet can output 600W continuously (steady long term without overheating/breaking down/etc.) and peaks of 3000W (short term only).

Anyone who owns a simple power usage meter can see that it uses no where near that. My 250 uses 31W playing music inputted through USB @ -25dB volume setting, DPM off!

Yes, it's all somewhat controversional or better said there's many differing opinions. I agree everyone should be their own judge and decide for themselves after auditioning one in their own system. I'm not going to defend what I am hearing (or think I am hearing ). All I know is that I like it (and the 250 on it) and many others do as well.

Just been reading about the PS Audio P3 and the high current output is filtered which surprised me as the consensus view is very clearly that whilst mains regeneration doesn't negatively impact sound if done properly, mains filtering should be avoided. I'm confused?

Only the P3 has such an filtered output without regeneration, the P5/P10 don't. No idea why PS Audio decided to include it.

I've never noticed (macro) dynamic restrictions using power filters and I've owned the Furutech TP-60e, PS Audio Duet and a PS Audio Dectet. Please note that the only amplifiers I used on those are a Lyngdorf TDAi2200 and the D-Premier/D250. Both are fairly energy efficient devices. Again plenty of people use filtering mains distributors, the cliche is true: YMMV

On a general note, the P3 isn't the only modification I've made. There's also a dedicated spur from the AC cabinet (which is also modified, no DIN rail but old fashionedly "hard wired" and it uses the old fashioned Neozed fuse, in this case a HiFi Tuning one ) using a custom HiFi-tuning solid core power cable with seperately shielded neutral and line cables and a shield surrounding line, neutral and earth together. Then a Furutech double wall socket and a Lessloss DFPC power cable into the P3 which also has a HiFi Tuning fuse.

One more thing, I've read considerable amounts of text before purchasing the P3 and one of the things that stuck with me is that the P3/P5/P10 don't 'sound' like the older P300/P500/P1000 or even the PPP. No one can state an opinion on the P3/P5/P10 based solely on having heard these older models!

I did what Kerry suggested and put the Dev 250 straight into the wall. Indeed it made a diference for a better midband presence and fluidity, although with some loss in bass articulation (it´s just my first impression on two of my reference CDs). The rest of the system remained plugged on the PPPremier.
My next adventure is to finally have a go with the V8...

[Antoine]

Happy to read that! My experience with the P3 (which is a different machine than the PPP) is different but I guess that's already quite clear from my earlier posts.

[Manoet]

Antoine, I have serious doubts about these units, if now running closer to 30 watts continuous at 'normal' listening volumes being able to run continuously at 20X that (600 watts) and holding together for any length of time. Hard for me to imagine anything currently running at/near 30 watts at ~45C only running 60-65C at 20X the power consumption. Seems to me people would start smelling melting plastic, cap wraps, phenolic, insulation and not be able to touch these things without oven mitts within a half hour of power-up. What am I missing?

[AaronG]

I have the PS Audio Premier for my 120 and it is barely hot to the touch, less than the Devialet. It makes a very noticeable difference -- but I live in the city with lots of crap in the power lines. It's a bit shocking when you see how variable the voltage is going into the unit, and a relief that it all goes out 120v

[MusicFirst]

I agree, Devialet's choice of the words 'at least' are a mistake and the word 'maximum' should have been used: At its rated output and their stated 85% power supply efficiency, the D250 consumes 588 watts RMS into 6 ohms (250wpcx2ch)/.85 and 889 watts RMS into 4 ohm loads  (378x2)/.85.  If one assumes +6db of dynamic headroom (6-9 db is typical in high end SS amplifiers) the peak power requirement is between 2352 watts (6 db headroom) to 4704 watts (9 db headroom) depending on the design of the power supply and the ADH amplifier.  

So Devialet's assertions are far from cow dung.

For me music is all about the dynamics! So if one ignores the real world power requirements of your amplifiers (and other components), you do so at your own peril.  In this case it is never about the RMS power.  It is about the peaks.

I was off this thread branch, but misunderstandings are rampant.

Kerry
B.A.Sc. P. Eng

[Manoet]

I just nominated a 'power' section in the suggestion box as I feel its important enough and doubt when this thread runs its course that'll be the end of it since its part & parcel to everything we dabble at here. But hey, that's just me.

[Antoine]

Just one final response to wrap it up from my side. I think Manoet is right in his post in the suggestion box, we're going very off topic here.

Unfortunately we're really missing the detailed specs here. The P3 for example can supply up to 9200W of short term peak power (P=V*I, 9200=230V*40A) we however don't know for how long. The tightly digitally controlled power supply inside the Devialet could use up to 3000W in peaks, again we don't know for how long. I'm also not sure under what real world conditions this may happen but I don't feel it'll happen at every kickdrum at volume levels that are just tolerable. But of course I don't have the numbers and measurements so I could be wrong and of course it is system dependent as some loudspeakers are easier loads than others. "Mitigating factors' to prevent current starvation is the power storage inside the Devialets (13.200μF of capacitance) but I suppose the possible energy reserves inside the P3 are already taken into account in the mentioned 40A.

Fortunately I have never noticed a shortage of power/restriction of dynamics but my situation is even more difficult than just described as I also use an active subwoofer which of course also has it's own internal power storage reserves. And finally my Devialet has a 2nd order high pass filter active @ 80Hz so doesn't have to work as hard in the lower frequencies compared to a setup without an active sub.

[MusicFirst]

Just one final response to wrap it up from my side. I think Manoet is right in his post in the suggestion box, we're going very off topic here.

Unfortunately we're really missing the detailed specs here. The P3 for example can supply up to 9200W of short term peak power (P=V*I, 9200=230V*40A) we however don't know for how long. The tightly digitally controlled power supply inside the Devialet could use up to 3000W in peaks, again we don't know for how long. I'm also not sure under what real world conditions this may happen but I don't feel it'll happen at every kickdrum at volume levels that are just tolerable. But of course I don't have the numbers and measurements so I could be wrong and of course it is system dependent as some loudspeakers are easier loads than others. "Mitigating factors' to prevent current starvation is the power storage inside the Devialets (13.200μF of capacitance) but I suppose the possible energy reserves inside the P3 are already taken into account in the mentioned 40A.

Fortunately I have never noticed a shortage of power/restriction of dynamics but my situation is even more difficult than just described as I also use an active subwoofer which of course also has it's own internal power storage reserves. And finally my Devialet has a 2nd order high pass filter active @ 80Hz so doesn't have to work as hard in the lower frequencies compared to a setup without an active sub.

From the PS Audio P3 Owner's Manual:

"All P3’s labeled US or JP can output a continuous load of up to 800 Volt-Amps of pure, regulated
AC, with peak momentary output capabilities of up to 1000 Volt-Amps. All P3’s labeled EX, GR,
or UK can output a continuous load of up to 900 Volt-Amps of pure, regulated AC, with peak
momentary output capabilities of up to 1000 Volt-Amps."

Kerry