Some sign of Expert line

[Delija]

Zoran, if you like the sound of your Dynaudio's you would be pretty disappointed with the Sopra's. The Focal tweeters are no match for Dynaudio. Not even close.

Hi Pim, 
thanks for joining the discussion. Well, I've got Evoke 50, they have a Cerotar tweeter (used in Special Forty and Confidence). Let me know which Dynaudio model you compared with Sopra 2? 
regards
Zoran

Hi Zoran,

It was the Sopra 1 and Dynaudio Confidence 20. Same room, same electronics, same song. I concentrate on the voice and how natural it sounds whenever I compare.

The Confidence sounded natural although a bit dull. I suspect that was because of the overly treated room (almost the whole side walls treated with 8cm thick absorption.

The Sopras sounded bright and not natural. Not just bright as in a balance towards high frequencies, but bright as in the voice sounding clearly coming from a tweeter that couldn't produce it properly. I was a bit surprised because when my mate was looking for speakers, the two Focals that he compared with the speakers he ended up buying (Fyne audio 502SP) were the closest to the Fyne sound and beat the 3 other brands in the same price range. I believe one was the Kanto range, but I'm not sure.

I have a theory on speakers nowadays. We've come to a point where you can get quite good sound at reasonable prices. For a company to get their speakers to stand out, they tend to go for 'higher resolution'. Just because you can hear more details doesn't mean you're listening to a better representation of the original sound. I'd rather hear the chest of the singer than the saliva on their lips. Hence my love for Vivid speakers, because they seam to be able to do both.

New Confidence series is voiced as most other DY speakers - they like "live" rooms. Of course - not bare walls.

Also, Confidence will create "drama" if there is drama on the recording. They won't make up the drama - unlike some other speakers, including some Focals.

[David A]

[quote="Pim" pid='107233' dateline='1669155226'

Hi Zoran,

It was the Sopra 1 and Dynaudio Confidence 20. Same room, same electronics, same song. I concentrate on the voice and how natural it sounds whenever I compare.

The Confidence sounded natural although a bit dull. I suspect that was because of the overly treated room (almost the whole side walls treated with 8cm thick absorption.

The Sopras sounded bright and not natural. Not just bright as in a balance towards high frequencies, but bright as in the voice sounding clearly coming from a tweeter that couldn't produce it properly. I was a bit surprised because when my mate was looking for speakers, the two Focals that he compared with the speakers he ended up buying (Fyne audio 502SP) were the closest to the Fyne sound and beat the 3 other brands in the same price range. I believe one was the Kanto range, but I'm not sure.

I have a theory on speakers nowadays. We've come to a point where you can get quite good sound at reasonable prices. For a company to get their speakers to stand out, they tend to go for 'higher resolution'. Just because you can hear more details doesn't mean you're listening to a better representation of the original sound. I'd rather hear the chest of the singer than the saliva on their lips. Hence my love for Vivid speakers, because they seam to be able to do both.
[/quote]

@Pim ,

I haven't heard the Sopra 1's or the Sopra 3's, just the 2's.

All I can say about the 2's is that if you set them up well in your room voices don't sound bright, they sound clear and natural. If the setup isn't right the 2s can definitely sound bright and throw detail in your face. I spent a fair amount of time on speaker placement and fine tuning the location of my acoustic treatments. They are not a speaker I would just stick anywhere in the room, like Dynaudios I think they need room around them to breathe. When I first got my Contour 1.3 SEs I had to put them close to the wall because of the size of the room but when we moved house and I got a bigger room I pulled them well out into the room and the top end of the 1.3 SEs suddenly got a sweetness I had never heard from them and voices became noticeably more natural in sound. I've never tried the Sopra 2s close to the wall but given the way they respond to being out in the room and my experience with the Contours I don't think they would respond well. I've got the Sopras about 1.3 metres from the side walls, about 1.8 metres from the wall behind them, and the tweeters are around 2.6 metres apart so there's a fair amount of space around them.

Setup makes a difference to any speaker and my view is that it isn't the fault of the speaker if it does not sound its best because of bad setup. Dealer showrooms are often not a good place to audition speakers. My dealer has heard my Sopras in my home and his comment on a couple of occasions is that they don't sound the way they did in the showroom. I think that says something.

[zoran_pavlovic]

[quote="Pim" pid='107233' dateline='1669155226'

Hi Zoran,

It was the Sopra 1 and Dynaudio Confidence 20. Same room, same electronics, same song. I concentrate on the voice and how natural it sounds whenever I compare.

The Confidence sounded natural although a bit dull. I suspect that was because of the overly treated room (almost the whole side walls treated with 8cm thick absorption.

The Sopras sounded bright and not natural. Not just bright as in a balance towards high frequencies, but bright as in the voice sounding clearly coming from a tweeter that couldn't produce it properly. I was a bit surprised because when my mate was looking for speakers, the two Focals that he compared with the speakers he ended up buying (Fyne audio 502SP) were the closest to the Fyne sound and beat the 3 other brands in the same price range. I believe one was the Kanto range, but I'm not sure.

I have a theory on speakers nowadays. We've come to a point where you can get quite good sound at reasonable prices. For a company to get their speakers to stand out, they tend to go for 'higher resolution'. Just because you can hear more details doesn't mean you're listening to a better representation of the original sound. I'd rather hear the chest of the singer than the saliva on their lips. Hence my love for Vivid speakers, because they seam to be able to do both.

@Pim ,

I haven't heard the Sopra 1's or the Sopra 3's, just the 2's.

All I can say about the 2's is that if you set them up well in your room voices don't sound bright, they sound clear and natural. If the setup isn't right the 2s can definitely sound bright and throw detail in your face. I spent a fair amount of time on speaker placement and fine tuning the location of my acoustic treatments. They are not a speaker I would just stick anywhere in the room, like Dynaudios I think they need room around them to breathe. When I first got my Contour 1.3 SEs I had to put them close to the wall because of the size of the room but when we moved house and I got a bigger room  I pulled them well out into the room and the top end of the 1.3 SEs suddenly got a sweetness I had never heard from them and voices became noticeably more natural in sound. I've never tried the Sopra 2s close to the wall but given the way they respond to being out in the room and my experience with the  Contours I don't think they would respond well. I've got the Sopras about 1.3 metres from the side walls, about 1.8 metres from the wall behind them, and the tweeters are around 2.6 metres apart so there's a fair amount of space around them.

The setup makes a difference to any speaker and my view is that it isn't the fault of the speaker if it does not sound its best because of bad setup. Dealer showrooms are often not a good place to audition speakers. My dealer has heard my Sopras in my home and his comment on a couple of occasions is that they don't sound the way they did in the showroom. I think that says something.
[/quote]

[zoran_pavlovic]

Hi David, so, the conclusion is: if you place Sopra's in the right place they sound natural and great, in opposite they do not produce the sound they should.
As for Dynaudio's, I heard higher models in the series than mine, but when I heard Marten's speakers and Magico's I realized that I prefer that sound much more. Would like to try Vivid Audio because wherever I saw them mentioned in discussions on this forum (and others, Audiogon, etc) I heard just lovely opinions.
And yes, you're right, dealer's showrooms and not always well treated to give the best sound some speaker can produce.
have a nice day
Zoran

[David A]

Hi David, so, the conclusion is: if you place Sopra's in the right place they sound natural and great, in opposite they do not produce the sound they should.
As for Dynaudio's, I heard higher models in the series than mine, but when I heard Marten's speakers and Magico's I realized that I prefer that sound much more. Would like to try Vivid Audio because wherever I saw them mentioned in discussions on this forum (and others, Audiogon, etc) I heard just lovely opinions.
And yes, you're right, dealer's showrooms and not always well treated to give the best sound some speaker can produce.
have a nice day
Zoran

Zoran,

The conclusion is that all speakers will deliver their best results if you put them in the right place for them. The right place for one speaker may not be the right place for another speaker, speaker design plays an important part in determining where a speaker will deliver its best result. Some speakers are designed to use boundary support (closeness to walls on one or two sides) more than others, some are designed to work best further out into the room. All speakers will not deliver their best if you don't put them in the right place for them. They may still sound good but not as good as they could sound, or they might sound bad in some way depending on where you place them.

Placement does not only affect Sopras, it affects every speaker. It affects some more than others but it affects every speaker.

[zoran_pavlovic]

Hi David, so, the conclusion is: if you place Sopra's in the right place they sound natural and great, in opposite they do not produce the sound they should.
As for Dynaudio's, I heard higher models in the series than mine, but when I heard Marten's speakers and Magico's I realized that I prefer that sound much more. Would like to try Vivid Audio because wherever I saw them mentioned in discussions on this forum (and others, Audiogon, etc) I heard just lovely opinions.
And yes, you're right, dealer's showrooms and not always well treated to give the best sound some speaker can produce.
have a nice day
Zoran

Zoran,

The conclusion is that all speakers will deliver their best results if you put them in the right place for them. The right place for one speaker may not be the right place for another speaker, speaker design plays an important part in determining where a speaker will deliver its best result. Some speakers are designed to use boundary support (closeness to walls on one or two sides) more than others, some are designed to work best further out into the room. All speakers will not deliver their best if you don't put them in the right place for them. They may still sound good but not as good as they could sound, or they might sound bad in some way depending on where you place them.

Placement does not only affect Sopras, it affects every speaker. It affects some more than others but it affects every speaker.

Hi @David A
I am in hi-fi for around 30 years. What you're saying is I was reading in Hi Magazines (like Stereophile,  What Hi FI decades ago). 
the rule of an equilateral triangle, some 3 meters between the speakers and some 3 meters sitting position from both speakers. 
Proper positioning is crucial in order to hear good sound, no need to spend words on it.
Well, it caught my interest when you said that in some positions speakers sound natural but in some non-natural. 
I was playing bass guitar for some 10 years and recorded 2 vinyls. I know very well what is the natural sound of bass guitar, drums, acoustic guitar, etc. 
Can you let us know please how you evaluate/ judge when the sound is natural? 
Thanks
Zoran

[David A]

Hi @David A
I am in hi-fi for around 30 years. What you're saying is I was reading in Hi Magazines (like Stereophile,  What Hi FI decades ago). 
the rule of an equilateral triangle, some 3 meters between the speakers and some 3 meters sitting position from both speakers. 
Proper positioning is crucial in order to hear good sound, no need to spend words on it.
Well, it caught my interest when you said that in some positions speakers sound natural but in some non-natural. 
I was playing bass guitar for some 10 years and recorded 2 vinyls. I know very well what is the natural sound of bass guitar, drums, acoustic guitar, etc. 
Can you let us know please how you evaluate/ judge when the sound is natural? 
Thanks
Zoran

@zoran_pavlovic

You used to play bass. I used to play acoustic guitar and occasionally accompany a singer. My wife used to play piano and we had an upright piano in the house. A friend used to lecture in clarinet at our local Conservatorium and I've heard him play in live performance. I also have one of his CDs and played it to him on my system once some years ago and asked if he thought his clarinet sounded right to him. He said it did.

I judge when the sound is natural in the same way as you or anyone else does, I make a judgement on whether voices and instruments sound the way I remember them sounding when I've heard live musical performances, particularly acoustic performances, over the years. There's no other way of doing it unless you can get a performer into the same room as your system  and get them to play/sing something which is available on a recording and do an A/B comparison of the live performance in your room. I haven't been able to do that and the recording  is always going to sound different to the live performance in some ways, especially if it was recorded in a space with very different acoustical qualities to your room.

What I said about the Sopras is my opinion based on my experience of how voices and instruments sound and you're welcome to accept or reject it. Just remember that I also said that you should always listen to speakers for yourself before buying them and the reason I said that was because the only opinion that counts about the sound of your system is your opinion. I like a system which sounds natural to me and mine does with a lot of recordings but not with all recording. If you visited my home you might not share my opinion. As far as I know there is no objective test for whether or not a system sounds natural, all any of us have is our own personal opinion to go on

We all set up our systems for our own personal enjoyment and we're the ones who spend the most time listening to our own system,  other people spend a lot less time listening to our system than we do. Would you want to change the sound of your system to satisfy someone who only hears it for a couple of hours every couple of weeks if what they enjoyed was not the sort of sound you enjoy when you listen to your system every day, maybe for several hours every day? It's my view that if you're not enjoying the sound you get from your own system then you're doing something wrong. Listen, listen carefully and take your time over it, and trust your own responses to what you hear because those responses count for you.

[Mohmm]

@Mohmm  - I totally agree with you on sound quality and I suspect most everyone still posting here still owns their Expert Pro for that reason.  But despite that, I am disappointed in Devialet, the company.  Reasons include:

-- they made commitments to the evolution of the Expert Pro Ci products at the time of release that they never followed through on.   
-- there are bugs in the configurator - particularly for dual mono owners - that have never been resolved.
-- as previously stated, the product is dated.
-- customer communication has always been poor - whether through support or direction.

In my 7+ years of being a Devialet customer I've come to realize that software is simply not their strength.  In this day and age of rapidly changing technology, product evolution through firmware improvements dictates the length and success of a product - particularly in this price range. 

None of that, of course, speaks to sound quality which has always been exceptional.  But if I were shopping in this price range today, I don't think Devialet would make the list for the above reasons.  I'm still scratching my head as to what would which is why I still have my 440 Pro and listen quite contentedly to it every day.

I largely agree with you regarding the evolution of the CI board and the configurator (is this issue confirmed?). But then, I stopped reading the HiFi and Highend press and turn to this website only very rarely.
P.s.: can someone remind me for what CI stands in the Expert context?

CI stands for Core Infinity.

Thanks: Core Infinity, fine, but what is meant to be infinite in this case?

[mdconnelly]

I largely agree with you regarding the evolution of the CI board and the configurator (is this issue confirmed?). But then, I stopped reading the HiFi and Highend press and turn to this website only very rarely.
P.s.: can someone remind me for what CI stands in the Expert context?

CI stands for Core Infinity.

Thanks: Core Infinity, fine, but what is meant to be infinite in this case?

All part of Devialet's bizarre marketing strategy.   What I think it means is "Infinity or 2 years - whichever comes first" 

[Delija]

Thanks: Core Infinity, fine, but what is meant to be infinite in this case?

Time needed to fix all bugs