Upsampling in Roon 1.3

[Confused]

Hey Confused. I replied over at Roon for the part I (think I) know.

The Devialet is DSD64 limited. Whether you can get higher into the Mutec and have it down sample I've no idea.

The mR sees the Mutec, not the Devialet.  The Mutec sends the Devialet PCM at 176.4kHz, so the Devialet's DSD64 limit should be irrelevant.  The Mutec will accept DSD256 or DoP128.  So I remain puzzled!

So you're converting (or trying to) to DSD 256/128 in Roon for the Mutec, and then it's downsampling back to PCM 176.4 to the Devialet? That's a hell of a conversion process.... are you just testing the theoretical limits?

I guess the mR reports back to Roon what the Mutec can handle.

Well, if you upsample to DSD64 and send direct to the Devialet, it then converts to PCM.  But yes, I am just seeing what is possible.  I have listened to a dSC Vivaldi upsampler converting 16/44.1 to DSD64, only for the Devialet to convert back to PCM.  In theory this seams like a lot of processing only to end up back at PCM, but for some reason it works brilliantly.  I have been planning to try HQPlayer at some point, so Roon's new upsampling features give me the chance to try these things, just to see what works.  It's all a but fruitless though, I'm beginning to think Roon sounds best with the DSP turned off!

[Dr Tone]

It's all a but fruitless though, I'm beginning to think Roon sounds best with the DSP turned off!

I agree.  Converting to DSD is a little soft.  Sending source DSD strait to the Devialet sounds a little better than decoding it in Roon.  Upsampling to to higher sample rate PCM seems to mess with the spacial cues a bit, oddly it's slightly similar to SAM in that way.

[GuillaumeB]

I have listened to a dSC Vivaldi upsampler converting 16/44.1 to DSD64, only for the Devialet to convert back to PCM.  In theory this seams like a lot of processing only to end up back at PCM, but for some reason it works brilliantly.  

I absolutely 100% concur with this.

What was most impressive was the ability to toggle between sample rates and formats and hear very real changes to the sound. The soundstage would increase in size or contract depending on the settings chosen.

Even music streamed from an iPhone using Airplay could be upsampled and made to sound superb. 

Speaking to the dCS rep at the time (and sorry if I am repeating myself here since I did post about it shortly after) he seemed to think that this was more due to the noise shaping algorithms and filters involved in the conversions. The idea being to remove digital artefacts and improve the quality of the bits.

In some ways this turns the whole bit perfect paradigm on its head.

There are many reports on the internet of another server called the SGM which is capable of upsampling to DSD 512 and DXD and supposedly completely transforms the performance of DACs. This is achieved by HQPlayer and Roon running in the same shiny box, in a highly optimised and powerful Windows 10 environment with a fancy power supply to boot. The price? A cool 16k euros. I wouldn't mind hearing what this thing could do to the Devialet.

Based on what I have read it seems that the HQPlayer algorithms are on a par with the processing carried out by the dCS Vivaldi Upsampler. So far I have only heard the latter and I can assure you it is no joke. Jaw droppingly good.

Guillaume

[octaviars]

I have listened to a dSC Vivaldi upsampler converting 16/44.1 to DSD64, only for the Devialet to convert back to PCM.  In theory this seams like a lot of processing only to end up back at PCM, but for some reason it works brilliantly.  

I absolutely 100% concur with this.

What was most impressive was the ability to toggle between sample rates and formats and hear very real changes to the sound. The soundstage would increase in size or contract depending on the settings chosen.

Even music streamed from an iPhone using Airplay could be upsampled and made to sound superb. 

Speaking to the dCS rep at the time (and sorry if I am repeating myself here since I did post about it shortly after) he seemed to think that this was more due to the noise shaping algorithms and filters involved in the conversions. The idea being to remove digital artefacts and improve the quality of the bits.

In some ways this turns the whole bit perfect paradigm on its head.

There are many reports on the internet of another server called the SGM which is capable of upsampling to DSD 512 and DXD and supposedly completely transforms the performance of DACs. This is achieved by HQPlayer and Roon running in the same shiny box, in a highly optimised and powerful Windows 10 environment with a fancy power supply to boot. The price? A cool 16k euros. I wouldn't mind hearing what this thing could do to the Devialet.

Based on what I have read it seems that the HQPlayer algorithms are on a par with the processing carried out by the dCS Vivaldi Upsampler. So far I have only heard the latter and I can assure you it is no joke. Jaw droppingly good.

Guillaume

Lampizator also builds a custom Linux solution with Roon and HQ Player price is 6900€ with 1Tb SSD (8Tb possible) 

The SUPERKOMPUTER

In June 2016 we introduced the product family split into a cheaper KOMPUTER and top of the range SUPERKOMPUTER. 

The Komputer is a very good machine capable of extremely good playback of all sorts of files. Due to our expertise and bulk procurement we are able to offer reasonable price for very competent product without insanely costly components. 

The SUPERCOMPUTER is a more costly version where everything is on the cutting edge. Namely: 

1. -Processor is the Intel i7 Skylake-The motherboard is DDR4/Skylake type-The RAM is 16 GB of PRO series DDR4-The system drive boot is from SUPER-SSD - the fastest memory on Earth-The music storage is a four-dock bay with external access to 4 SSD drives of up to 8TB of SSD. We provide 1TB of Samsung Pro SSD for starters-The USB output is from highest spec audiophile SotM card USB3-There is an option for battery power from car battery-An optional provision for tube SPDIF output versus solid state in the Komputer-Software is embedded linux with ROON plus HQplayer

http://www.lampizator.eu/Fikus/KOMPUTER_...ERVER.html

[petrik]

Based on what I have read it seems that the HQPlayer algorithms are on a par with the processing carried out by the dCS Vivaldi Upsampler. So far I have only heard the latter and I can assure you it is no joke. Jaw droppingly good.

I decided to buy HQPlayer after reading this I'm still trying out different settings on it but I think it sounds good indeed.

[Confused]

Thanks to some input from Roon's Brian Luczkiewicz, this issue with Roon native DSD not working with the mR+Mutec is now is now clear. The reason it does not work is a lack of a Linux patch for native DSD being available for the Mutec MCS+USB. So if you run a mR + Mutec, it's DoP only if you want to run DSD, until a Linux patch come along that is.

Some comments on Guillaume's & octaviers' posts. I did look at the SGM 2015. Whilst it is undeniably impressive in many areas, it is $16,000 and USB only. Whilst this may be fine in some systems, I see this as not being good with a Devialet, where the AES/EBU input is superior to USB. (This very point was covered in the letters page of HiFi News this month)

Plus it's a similar issue with the Superkomputer, which also appears to be optimised for USB, although it does offer 'tube SPDIF' as an option. (tube SPDIF??)

This is one positive for the dCS products, at least they have AES/EBU outputs. OK, the Vivaldi is very expensive, too expensive I would say. One thing I wonder is what the results be like running a high spec PC, Roon/HQPlayer, and the dCS network bridge. This would allow all the fancy upsampling offered via HQPlayer, a decent interface, and direct connection to AES/EBU. Plus for those that already have a Mutec, you could use the Mutec as an external clock for the Network bridge, or run it in series. I have not seen any reports yet regarding the sound quality of the Network bridge, but if it is any good it does offer some interesting options and could well offer the maximum 'bang for your buck'.

[GuillaumeB]

Thanks to some input from Roon's Brian Luczkiewicz, this issue with Roon native DSD not working with the mR+Mutec is now is now clear.  The reason it does not work is a lack of a Linux patch for native DSD being available for the Mutec MCS+USB.  So if you run a mR + Mutec, it's DoP only if you want to run DSD, until a Linux patch come along that is.

Some comments on Guillaume's & octaviers' posts.  I did look at the SGM 2015.  Whilst it is undeniably impressive in many areas, it is $16,000 and USB only.  Whilst this may be fine in some systems, I see this as not being good with a Devialet, where the AES/EBU input is superior to USB.  (This very point was covered in the letters page of HiFi News this month)

Plus it's a similar issue with the Superkomputer, which also appears to be optimised for USB, although it does offer 'tube SPDIF' as an option.  (tube SPDIF??)

This is one positive for the dCS products, at least they have AES/EBU outputs.  OK, the Vivaldi is very expensive, too expensive I would say.  One thing I wonder is what the results be like running a high spec PC, Roon/HQPlayer, and the dCS network bridge.  This would allow all the fancy upsampling offered via HQPlayer, a decent interface, and direct connection to AES/EBU.  Plus for those that already have a Mutec, you could use the Mutec as an external clock for the Network bridge, or run it in series.  I have not seen any reports yet regarding the sound quality of the Network bridge, but if it is any good it does offer some interesting options and could well offer the maximum 'bang for your buck'.

Some interesting points there. However does anyone know if the dCS Network Bridge supports HQ Player's NAA mode? 

Not sure I would want to plug in a big noisy high spec PC into the the Network Bridge via USB so unless this option is available...

Come to think of it when are we going to get some field reports of the Network Bridge? Which dealers have the unit on demo? (I'm getting impatient here as you can see   )

What about good ol' AIR 3.0.2? Can't we just run Roon and HQPlayer on a souped up i7 Windows 10 machine and stream to the Devialet via AIR? Those worried about intra ethernet electrical noise contamination can always chuck in an optical bridge? I wonder if this wouldn't be the ultimate solution? Hang on... I know, I know! 

And before anyone asks I don't own a PC! 

Guillaume

[octaviars]

Thanks to some input from Roon's Brian Luczkiewicz, this issue with Roon native DSD not working with the mR+Mutec is now is now clear.  The reason it does not work is a lack of a Linux patch for native DSD being available for the Mutec MCS+USB.  So if you run a mR + Mutec, it's DoP only if you want to run DSD, until a Linux patch come along that is.

Some comments on Guillaume's & octaviers' posts.  I did look at the SGM 2015.  Whilst it is undeniably impressive in many areas, it is $16,000 and USB only.  Whilst this may be fine in some systems, I see this as not being good with a Devialet, where the AES/EBU input is superior to USB.  (This very point was covered in the letters page of HiFi News this month)

Plus it's a similar issue with the Superkomputer, which also appears to be optimised for USB, although it does offer 'tube SPDIF' as an option.  (tube SPDIF??)

This is one positive for the dCS products, at least they have AES/EBU outputs.  OK, the Vivaldi is very expensive, too expensive I would say.  One thing I wonder is what the results be like running a high spec PC, Roon/HQPlayer, and the dCS network bridge.  This would allow all the fancy upsampling offered via HQPlayer, a decent interface, and direct connection to AES/EBU.  Plus for those that already have a Mutec, you could use the Mutec as an external clock for the Network bridge, or run it in series.  I have not seen any reports yet regarding the sound quality of the Network bridge, but if it is any good it does offer some interesting options and could well offer the maximum 'bang for your buck'.

Some interesting points there. However does anyone know if the dCS Network Bridge supports HQ Player's NAA mode? 

I hardly think that dCS would support NAA mode.

Not sure I would want to plug in a big noisy high spec PC into the the Network Bridge via USB so unless this option is available...

I only think the USB on the Network bridge is for external drive.

Come to think of it when are we going to get some field reports of the Network Bridge? Which dealers have the unit on demo? (I'm getting impatient here as you can see   )

What about good ol' AIR 3.0.2? Can't we just run Roon and HQPlayer on a souped up i7 Windows 10 machine and stream to the Devialet via AIR? Those worried about intra ethernet electrical noise contamination can always chuck in an optical bridge? I wonder if this wouldn't be the ultimate solution? Hang on... I know, I know! 

Is Devialet AIR visable in HQ palyer as an output like AIR is in Roon?

And before anyone asks I don't own a PC! 

Guillaume

I think it is hard to combine all of the featuers with HQ player and not run a NAA endpoint like microRendu or SOTM-SMS200 then you dont have to worry about using USB out on the PC.

PC/ROON/HQ Player/microRendu/Mutec MC3+USB/AES/Devialet if HQ player can talk to AIR then ditch microRendu and Mutec.

I run Roon and AIR3.0.2, solid as a rock no problems what so ever and to me it sounds really good.

I will perhaps in the future try a Innuos with Roon and USB out, the guy I talked to about it really liked over USB but as most say Devialet are not so good on the USB I might throw in a Mutec to go AES.

[Confused]

Thanks to some input from Roon's Brian Luczkiewicz, this issue with Roon native DSD not working with the mR+Mutec is now is now clear.  The reason it does not work is a lack of a Linux patch for native DSD being available for the Mutec MCS+USB.  So if you run a mR + Mutec, it's DoP only if you want to run DSD, until a Linux patch come along that is.

Some comments on Guillaume's & octaviers' posts.  I did look at the SGM 2015.  Whilst it is undeniably impressive in many areas, it is $16,000 and USB only.  Whilst this may be fine in some systems, I see this as not being good with a Devialet, where the AES/EBU input is superior to USB.  (This very point was covered in the letters page of HiFi News this month)

Plus it's a similar issue with the Superkomputer, which also appears to be optimised for USB, although it does offer 'tube SPDIF' as an option.  (tube SPDIF??)

This is one positive for the dCS products, at least they have AES/EBU outputs.  OK, the Vivaldi is very expensive, too expensive I would say.  One thing I wonder is what the results be like running a high spec PC, Roon/HQPlayer, and the dCS network bridge.  This would allow all the fancy upsampling offered via HQPlayer, a decent interface, and direct connection to AES/EBU.  Plus for those that already have a Mutec, you could use the Mutec as an external clock for the Network bridge, or run it in series.  I have not seen any reports yet regarding the sound quality of the Network bridge, but if it is any good it does offer some interesting options and could well offer the maximum 'bang for your buck'.

Some interesting points there. However does anyone know if the dCS Network Bridge supports HQ Player's NAA mode? 

Not sure I would want to plug in a big noisy high spec PC into the the Network Bridge via USB so unless this option is available...

Come to think of it when are we going to get some field reports of the Network Bridge? Which dealers have the unit on demo? (I'm getting impatient here as you can see   )

What about good ol' AIR 3.0.2? Can't we just run Roon and HQPlayer on a souped up i7 Windows 10 machine and stream to the Devialet via AIR? Those worried about intra ethernet electrical noise contamination can always chuck in an optical bridge? I wonder if this wouldn't be the ultimate solution? Hang on... I know, I know! 

And before anyone asks I don't own a PC! 

Guillaume

The Network Bridge is 'Roon Ready' but does this necessarily confirm compatibility with HQPlayer NAA?  A very good question! 

I know both Martins Hifi and Oxford audio have the Network Bridge on demo, but I'm guessing we are all waiting for the new Devialet streamer board, which will undoubtibly crush the opposition without mercy!  (or not, but it will at least offer a reference point for dealer demos)

Of course, if the Network Bridge is not NAA compatible, there is always the alternative of the microRendu + Mutec combination, and I've already got that one!

[petrik]

I have a win10 desktop computer which is running Roon Server, HQPlayer and AIR. Everything works fine up to 192khz and sound quality is great