220 Pro Ci vs 250 expert

[Delija]

Remember that the 220 Expert Pro is Roon Ready whereas the non-CI 250 Expert is not Roon Ready.  For me, that is big.  I don't doubt that the 250 Expert Pro CI sounds much better than the 220.  Not sure how the 250 Expert would stack up to the 220 Expert Pro but I can say that the 220 Expert Pro was a significant improvement over the 200 Expert to my ears.

For me - Air sounds better than RAAT, so this is not a big deal.

UPnP sounds better than any Roon variant - so this is a big deal

[devianet]

For fun I've just compared the 220 Pro against the 250 Pro.

I expected not to be able to hear any difference as the electronics are the same, the firmware is the same, the settings were the same, the case is different, and the software limits the power at high levels in the case of the 220. I listened at levels of couple of watts.

But I'm surprised as I can clearly hear very significant differences. To my ears the 250 Pro is clearly better
- more three-dimensional, more natural and involving, more emotional connection to the music, helps the speakers disappear more, harder to skip tracks. I just find it so difficult to believe this large difference is all due to a different case and a software change to limit power.

As I've mentioned on another thread, the step up from 250 Pro to 1000 Pro is immense. The 1000 Pro becomes "all-encompassing" in comparison to the 250 Pro, so this jump is much bigger than the jump from 220 Pro to 250 Pro.

My partner was listening with me as I swapped the cables around and agreed wholeheartedly with my observations.

All the amps are superb, it's just for me the 250 Pro and 1000 Pro have something extra, which I might never have missed had I not had the opportunity of hearing them. But after hearing, you can't unhear....

[Delija]

It has to be better - who would pay double the price just for more fancy case and remote?

For me, 440 Pro has the best price/performance ratio.

As you already said, the difference between 1000 Pro and 250 Pro is more significant than the difference between 250 Pro and 220 Pro. The difference between 440 Pro and 220 Pro is also more significant than the difference between 250 Pro and 220 Pro. For me, 440 Pro is without a doubt better than 250 Pro, expecially with power "hungry" speakers. The advantage of 250 Pro is the easy path for upgrade to 1000 Pro. 1000 Pro is obviously better, but, for the price of 1000 Pro - there are a lot of other interesting equipment in the market. For the price of 440 Pro - not so. 15k can also be invested into better speakers... Tough choice

[Marietto]

.  Not sure how the 250 Expert would stack up to the 220 Expert Pro but I can say that the 220 Expert Pro was a significant improvement over the 200 Expert to my ears.

It was like that for me too, the difference between 200 and 220 was really noticeable.
Of course, € 4k is not a small amount to upgrade the 250
last year I paid € 2,390 to upgrade the 200 to 220

And in any case Devialet has not yet answered me ...

Think this is German company called Auditorium

Thanks for the information

https://www.auditorium.de/hersteller/devialet/

[Confused]

For fun I've just compared the 220 Pro against the 250 Pro.

I expected not to be able to hear any difference as the electronics are the same, the firmware is the same, the settings were the same, the case is different, and the software limits the power at high levels in the case of the 220. I listened at levels of couple of watts.

I am perhaps being slightly pedantic here, but in fact the electronics in the 220 Pro and 250 Pro may not be exactly identical. It was true that the innards of the Expert 200 and 250 were indeed absolutely identical, but there is a difference between the DAMP board in the 220 Pro versus the 250 Pro. This might simply be related to the method used for cooling with the 250's different case, but as the board designations are different it is quite possible that there are differences in the actual electronics also. Quite what this means for the sound quality that your ears are ultimately detecting is impossible to say, but it does hint that there might be a hardware related reason, or it is at least a possibility. 

This was mentioned a while back in the thread linked below:

https://devialetchat.com/Thread-D220-Pro...the-inside

Another factor is that the firmware for the PSU is set up slightly differently between the 220 Pro and 250 Pro, with respect to the two unit's different cooling capacity, but as you mention, it is hard to fathom why this might make a difference if you are only using a couple of watts.

[devianet]

No disclaimer for pedantry needed, the details matter, because Devialet themselves take the position that the two products are functionally identical and the differences are in power margin.

https://help.devialet.com/hc/en-us/artic...rt-250-Pro

So on paper it would seem that, for those people who (like me) don't listen at very high volumes, and think the 220 case is amply pretty enough, they should be able to save a big chunk of change by buying the cheaper option, and enjoy the same sound.

But - this is apparently not the case, and there is a very real and significant sonic improvement with the 250 Pro, and it is effective not just at high volume levels. I was sceptical myself, but I can hear what others have reported on this forum.

[Confused]

No disclaimer for pedantry needed, the details matter, because Devialet themselves take the position that the two products are functionally identical and the differences are in power margin.

https://help.devialet.com/hc/en-us/artic...rt-250-Pro

So on paper it would seem that, for those people who (like me) don't listen at very high volumes, and think the 220 case is amply pretty enough, they should be able to save a big chunk of change by buying the cheaper option, and enjoy the same sound.

But - this is apparently not the case, and there is a very real and significant sonic improvement with the 250 Pro, and it is effective not just at high volume levels. I was sceptical myself, but I can hear what others have reported on this forum.

I would say "functionally identical" is rather different to your original comment that the "electronics are the same". As an example, my D800 Expert was functionally identical to my current 1000 Pro, prior to it having the CI board installed, but we know the electronics are different. I also note that the above link is to some words from Oceane Turpin, who is part of the customer support team, not the design team as such. I think it is also fair to say that some of Oceane's technical explanations in the past were, shall we say, a little eccentric. (although she is possibly the most charming person in all of France)

That said, this all reminds me a little of Mathieu Pernot's words at the OAC Expert Pro launch. He made a comment that the two most important things were power and volume control and that the theoretically ideal amplifier would have "infinite power". Obviously nobody needs "infinite power", but Mathieu did go on to explain why power was important, even when you do not need it all. I do not think I fully understood all of his explanation, but it was related to accurately reproducing transients and similar.

All I am saying here really is that there are some very real technical explanations and reasons to explain what you were hearing during your comparison.

[devianet]

A wide range of interpretations of "functionally identical" are possible.

At a wide interpretation, one could say the M33 is functionally identical to the 220 Pro as it's a one-box high-quality audio solution containing an amplifier with digital elements. But of course this is not the intended meaning.

At a more moderate interpretation - "it's a Devialet product with approximately the same inputs, general design and implementation scheme, similar place in the range, and output power."

And a rather narrow interpretation - which is what I tend towards : "the function of this product is its distinctive and pleasing sound quality, which is a product of the electronics".

The further comments in the Devialet message, I would say, tend to - correctly or incorrectly - reinforce a narrow interpretation of the meaning of "functionally identical". The greater power is suggested to be of possible use with transient reproduction on difficult or complex loads. There is no suggestion of more general or widespread improvements.

Then we appear to have run out of sonic differences to mention, and move swiftly on to the visual aspects, and finally heat dissipation.

It is quite true that it is not stated definitively, in this message, that the electronics are identical, but it does seem to me to be implied by omission. As we're all long aware, Devialet are well known for loudly proclaiming their design advances, patents, and achievements - with some justification! So it would seem somewhat out-of-character to omit to mention electronic improvements between the 220 Pro and the 250 Pro, if there were any. Unless, as is suggested, and as is not unusual, one hand of the company doesn't know what the other hand is up to.

[Redwingnine]

Remember that the 220 Expert Pro is Roon Ready whereas the non-CI 250 Expert is not Roon Ready.  For me, that is big.  I don't doubt that the 250 Expert Pro CI sounds much better than the 220.  Not sure how the 250 Expert would stack up to the 220 Expert Pro but I can say that the 220 Expert Pro was a significant improvement over the 200 Expert to my ears.

Happy to hear that.  I just sold my 200 and got a deal on the Pro 220.  Had thought about getting dual 140 Pro, but no preamp out was a deal breaker for me.