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29-Nov-2017, 04:06
(This post was last modified: 29-Nov-2017, 04:07 by rbsound.)
(20-Oct-2017, 05:39)watchnerd Wrote: (14-Oct-2017, 10:33)ogs Wrote: rbsound
[quote pid='57241' dateline='1485543883']
Unfortunately, I’m still not getting the quality of sound out of my turntable that I’m hoping for. While this has nothing to do with the upgrade (the phono stage did not change), it just didn’t get any better. I have an Acoustic Signature WOW XL turntable with an Ortofon 2M cartridge. Not sure if the Devialet phono stage isn’t up to it or if I need to consider a different cartridge. But I digress.
Hi rbsound. I realize I am replying to an old post here, but did you find a way to improve the sound for vinyl? Your 2M cartridge is moving magnet and should see a load of 47kOhms or more. I believe the input impedance of Devialet's phono stage is max 14kOhms. A better match would be a high output moving coil for MM gain or a low output MC with the phono input set for higher gain. A step up transformer +low output MC +MM gain is an alternative (like f1eng is using), but a SUT is also generally designed for 47kOhm load so care should be taken here.
Where did you get the info that the MM input is only 14k?
Regarding resistance and capacitance, the tooltip within the Configurator says "useless and disabled for MM cartridges", so one can't assume the max settings available within the UI apply to MM.
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Sorry for the late reply, been traveling a bit and haven't checked in. ogs, thanks for your comments, and no, nothing has changed on the vinyl front for me (same gear and setup); and still lackluster sound. Still have it set for the default setting for my Ortofon 2M cartridge (RIAA 1976).
So, assuming that the actual input impedance of Devialet's MM input is 14k and cannot be adjusted as indicated in the configurator (and as watchnerd points out) and Ortofon calls for 47k, I have two questions:
1. What impact on sound quality would you expect from this mismatch?
2. Is there some other setting in the Devialet configurator that would be a better match for the 2M cartridge? Is there a specific MC setting that would be a work around since there appears to be no way to adjust the MM setup?
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I think the only way to get around this (assuming the the "high" setting of the Devialet phono input is still 14k) is either:
1. test with an external RIAA where you know the loading for your 2M is correct. Connect it to the analog input as line in.
2. try an MC cartridge, either a low output where you can set the correct loading or a high output MC which will probably work better with the 14k load. (for example Ortofon MC3 Turbo or Dynavector 10x5)
For your #1 I guess the sound will be quite dark with less detail. #2 If the Devialet still has 14k as the highest setting there is not much you can do with the 2M direct in I'm afraid.
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Thanks ogs. A few follow-ups:
1. By "test with an external RIAA" you mean get a phono preamp and connect to the line input and see if the sound is any better? I know there are many preamps out there, any particular recommendations?
2. Do we know that the settings on the 250 Pro for a MC cartridge accurately reflect the actual line inputs?
3. Lastly, to the extent the Devialet MM settings are not accurate, is that something that could be conceivably fixed through one of the many firmware updates?
4. Is there some inexpensive way to test what the actual loading on the 250 Pro to definitively determine how accurate the configurator setting is vs. the actual performance?
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(29-Nov-2017, 17:12)rbsound Wrote: Thanks ogs. A few follow-ups:
1. By "test with an external RIAA" you mean get a phono preamp and connect to the line input and see if the sound is any better? I know there are many preamps out there, any particular recommendations?
2. Do we know that the settings on the 250 Pro for a MC cartridge accurately reflect the actual line inputs?
3. Lastly, to the extent the Devialet MM settings are not accurate, is that something that could be conceivably fixed through one of the many firmware updates?
4. Is there some inexpensive way to test what the actual loading on the 250 Pro to definitively determine how accurate the configurator setting is vs. the actual performance?
1. Yes, I actually meant if you can borrow a phono preamp to test. No recommendations I'm afraid. I have not looked at those for a while.
2. According to several users here on DC I think the settings for MCs are quite accurate
3. I do not know the internal HW of the phono module. Software change is a possibility, but if so Devialet would probably have done it already.
4. To my knowledge there is no inexpensive way to measure these parameters.
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Many thanks, ogs. One other thing; do you think the DPM setting (I've been running it on) could have any impact the MM effective load inputs? Of course, I could switch DPM off and see if I hear a difference, but curious if this could affect it as some have commented of improved SQ with it off, although not specifically with respect to the phono stage.
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29-Nov-2017, 18:26
(This post was last modified: 29-Nov-2017, 18:35 by thumb5.)
Just thinking out loud here...the configurator help says that both the resistive and capacitive loading is "ignored and disabled for MM" but yet allows values in the range 0-700 pF to be selected. That seems exactly the right range to tweak the frequency response of an MM cartridge, but would have no noticeable effect for MC (if I understand things properly). It seems reasonable for the resistive load not to be adjustable for MM so I wonder whether that statement in the help text is wrong to apply to capacitive load as well. It might be worth adjusting the capacitive loading for your MM cartridge to see whether it does in fact change the sound quality, perhaps?
ETA: the downloaded configuration file definitely changes to reflect the selected load capacitance when an MM cartridge is selected. Whether the firmware takes any notice is another matter, I suppose.
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thumb5, the load capacitance the Ortofon calls for for the 2M is 150-300pF and the Devialet configurator defaults to 300pF when selecting the 2M cartridge. So, the setting seems OK on that front.
I believe it is the load resistance that is in question here. Ortofon recommends 47 kOhm here while the Devialet configurator defaults to "High". The drop-down menu for this item does have other options ranging from 10 to 460, but all appear to be below the "High" setting. Since it has been reported that the actual load metric is 14k, well short of the desired 47k for this cartridge, I don't see how I have a shot at "cranking up" the load resistance setting.
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Agreed, if you're using the "High" resistance setting, there's no way to adjust the actual value. Changing the capacitive loading might nonetheless affect, and possibly improve, the sound quality though: if the resistive load isn't what the cartridge prefers I'd expect a different capacitive load (than the one specified) might be needed to get a flat response.
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As far as I have understood Devialet is somewhat 'diffuse' when asked questions about MM input impedance. The only measurement I know of is from the Stereophile follow-up review of the D-Premier. Quite old now, but lacking newer measurements it's the only thing we got. The Ortofon 2M is a good cartridge so should sound nice connected to a Devialet. When it doesn't, it certainly indicates that the loading parameters are wrong. We therefore must assume the phono input has not changed since the review in Stereophile.
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05-Dec-2017, 04:47
(This post was last modified: 05-Dec-2017, 04:48 by rbsound.)
Borrowed a Sutherland Insight phono stage between the 2M Black and the 250 Pro - what a difference; like someone removed a blanket that was draped over the speakers.
Figuring out my next move. I think I may try to upgrade the 2M Black to a DV XX2-Mk2 MC. My thinking is that this should significantly upgrade my sound from what I've heard, and perhaps, the Devialet phono stage will work well in MC mode despite the problems I'm having with the MM mode. If I still need a phono stage to get the most out of my turntable so be it, but for the about the same money it would take to get the 2M sounding good via an external phono stage, I could upgrade the cartridge.
Thoughts?
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