Audio Science Review of Expert 200.

[Greg]

Given Experts design topology, how can any of these measurements separate DAC performance from amplifier performance?

This is an excellent point, definitively they cannot. 

Consider you are measuring a "conventional" integrated amplifier, here you can measure just the amplifier, but to get measurements directly comparable to a digitally fed Devialet, you would need to add a DAC, which presumably adds its own noise, distortion and whatever else.

Indeed, in the case of the ASR measurements, or other measurements made via the analogue input, you are inevitably adding any noise or distortions from the ADC, which most of us do not need to use.  Clearly this penalises the Devialet results if considered in direct comparison with a conventional amplifier.

I suppose you could make direct comparisons of the digital input with integrated amps like the Gryphon or Hegal, which include their own DACs, but essentially these are just amp and DAC in the same box, a little different to Devialets ADH where the DAC is integral to the amplifiers performance.

A further step beyond all this is that with the typical usage for many, the Devialet is also a source as AIR or the CI board is effectively a "networked attached end point".

I do find the measurements interesting though.  As an example, I know many Devialet users get excellent subjective results using an external phono stage, which is fair enough when you consider that the built in phono stage is audibly noisy with low output MC's.  However, seeing how the various inputs measure, an external digital phono stage with S/PDIF output might be even better.  In theory at least.  It might even be possible to use a conventional analogue phono stage with an external ADC, which might yield good results if the external ADC measures better than Devialet's internal offering.  Again, in theory at least.

As an aside, I'm using the "listening with ears" method this morning.  No issues detected so far …….  

Hi Confused,

I am not really getting why the measurement of analog input is noisy. I have a turntable connected to my 1000 Pro, no matter the MM cartridge I used before or the currentC cartridge. Both is very very quite, friend came to my house listen to it are surprised Vinly can be this clean. The Devialet background is like black black black, it’s one of the thing it surprised me. So I don’t know what those measurements reflected in real world listening.

Well, the clue is Confused has referred to low output MC cartridges which many of us use and have found with appropriate settings within the configurator,  the system sounds noisy, in particular hiss. I have no doubt that any MM cartridge will sound just fine with the configurator appropriately set. Those of us with low output MC cartridges have generally reverted to the addition of external step up transformers or a separate dedicated MC phono stage, as I have done. This issue has been communicated to Devialet and Matthew Pernot has personally looked at the problem and has concluded that the level of noise is acceptable. That is nonsense because users are troubled by the noise. As said, (considering the refusal to accept there is a noise issue) most of us in this situation have found our own solutions. I don’t blame Devialet for this because I realise how hard it is to create a noise free low output MC stage particularly when the amp has everything crammed into such a small space when low output MC cartridges benefit from expanded low noise construction requiring components in the phono amplifier section to be well spaced........not possible in a Devialet chassis. 

So, a separate MC phono amplifier absolutely works for me. My two gripes are 1, why can’t Devialet publicly recognise the problem and either acknowledge that they can’t fix it or better, do something that does fix it. My 2nd is I’m a bit pissed that I have to accommodate the space of a separate MC phono stage when one of my main drivers for going full Devialet was that I would have a simple one box system. Unfortunately, it seems that’s not going to happen. Otherwise, the sound of my 250 Pro C/I is magnificent!

[Greg]

Given Experts design topology, how can any of these measurements separate DAC performance from amplifier performance?

This is an excellent point, definitively they cannot. 

Consider you are measuring a "conventional" integrated amplifier, here you can measure just the amplifier, but to get measurements directly comparable to a digitally fed Devialet, you would need to add a DAC, which presumably adds its own noise, distortion and whatever else.

Indeed, in the case of the ASR measurements, or other measurements made via the analogue input, you are inevitably adding any noise or distortions from the ADC, which most of us do not need to use.  Clearly this penalises the Devialet results if considered in direct comparison with a conventional amplifier.

I suppose you could make direct comparisons of the digital input with integrated amps like the Gryphon or Hegal, which include their own DACs, but essentially these are just amp and DAC in the same box, a little different to Devialets ADH where the DAC is integral to the amplifiers performance.

A further step beyond all this is that with the typical usage for many, the Devialet is also a source as AIR or the CI board is effectively a "networked attached end point".

I do find the measurements interesting though.  As an example, I know many Devialet users get excellent subjective results using an external phono stage, which is fair enough when you consider that the built in phono stage is audibly noisy with low output MC's.  However, seeing how the various inputs measure, an external digital phono stage with S/PDIF output might be even better.  In theory at least.  It might even be possible to use a conventional analogue phono stage with an external ADC, which might yield good results if the external ADC measures better than Devialet's internal offering.  Again, in theory at least.

As an aside, I'm using the "listening with ears" method this morning.  No issues detected so far …….  

Hi Confused,

I am not really getting why the measurement of analog input is noisy. I have a turntable connected to my 1000 Pro, no matter the MM cartridge I used before or the currentC cartridge. Both is very very quite, friend came to my house listen to it are surprised Vinly can be this clean. The Devialet background is like black black black, it’s one of the thing it surprised me. So I don’t know what those measurements reflected in real world listening.

Well, the clue is Confused has referred to low output MC cartridges which many of us use and have found with appropriate settings within the configurator,  the system sounds noisy, in particular hiss. I have no doubt that any MM cartridge will sound just fine with the configurator appropriately set. Those of us with low output MC cartridges have generally reverted to the addition of external step up transformers or a separate dedicated MC phono stage, as I have done. This issue has been communicated to Devialet and Matthew Pernot has personally looked at the problem and has concluded that the level of noise is acceptable. That is nonsense because users are troubled by the noise. As said, (considering the refusal to accept there is a noise issue) most of us in this situation have found our own solutions. I don’t blame Devialet for this because I realise how hard it is to create a noise free low output MC stage particularly when the amp has everything crammed into such a small space when low output MC cartridges benefit from expanded low noise construction requiring components in the phono amplifier section to be well spaced........not possible in a Devialet chassis. 

So, a separate MC phono amplifier absolutely works for me. My two gripes are 1, why can’t Devialet publicly recognise the problem and either acknowledge that they can’t fix it or better, do something that does fix it. My 2nd is I’m a bit pissed that I have to accommodate the space of a separate MC phono stage when one of my main drivers for going full Devialet was that I would have a simple one box system. Unfortunately, it seems that’s not going to happen. Otherwise, the sound of my 250 Pro C/I is magnificent!

[PeppaPig]

This is an excellent point, definitively they cannot. 

Consider you are measuring a "conventional" integrated amplifier, here you can measure just the amplifier, but to get measurements directly comparable to a digitally fed Devialet, you would need to add a DAC, which presumably adds its own noise, distortion and whatever else.

Indeed, in the case of the ASR measurements, or other measurements made via the analogue input, you are inevitably adding any noise or distortions from the ADC, which most of us do not need to use.  Clearly this penalises the Devialet results if considered in direct comparison with a conventional amplifier.

I suppose you could make direct comparisons of the digital input with integrated amps like the Gryphon or Hegal, which include their own DACs, but essentially these are just amp and DAC in the same box, a little different to Devialets ADH where the DAC is integral to the amplifiers performance.

A further step beyond all this is that with the typical usage for many, the Devialet is also a source as AIR or the CI board is effectively a "networked attached end point".

I do find the measurements interesting though.  As an example, I know many Devialet users get excellent subjective results using an external phono stage, which is fair enough when you consider that the built in phono stage is audibly noisy with low output MC's.  However, seeing how the various inputs measure, an external digital phono stage with S/PDIF output might be even better.  In theory at least.  It might even be possible to use a conventional analogue phono stage with an external ADC, which might yield good results if the external ADC measures better than Devialet's internal offering.  Again, in theory at least.

As an aside, I'm using the "listening with ears" method this morning.  No issues detected so far …….  

Hi Confused,

I am not really getting why the measurement of analog input is noisy. I have a turntable connected to my 1000 Pro, no matter the MM cartridge I used before or the currentC cartridge. Both is very very quite, friend came to my house listen to it are surprised Vinly can be this clean. The Devialet background is like black black black, it’s one of the thing it surprised me. So I don’t know what those measurements reflected in real world listening.

Well, the clue is Confused has referred to low output MC cartridges which many of us use and have found with appropriate settings within the configurator,  the system sounds noisy, in particular hiss. I have no doubt that any MM cartridge will sound just fine with the configurator appropriately set. Those of us with low output MC cartridges have generally reverted to the addition of external step up transformers or a separate dedicated MC phono stage, as I have done. This issue has been communicated to Devialet and Matthew Pernot has personally looked at the problem and has concluded that the level of noise is acceptable. That is nonsense because users are troubled by the noise. As said, (considering the refusal to accept there is a noise issue) most of us in this situation have found our own solutions. I don’t blame Devialet for this because I realise how hard it is to create a noise free low output MC stage particularly when the amp has everything crammed into such a small space when low output MC cartridges benefit from expanded low noise construction requiring components in the phono amplifier section to be well spaced........not possible in a Devialet chassis. 

So, a separate MC phono amplifier absolutely works for me. My two gripes are 1, why can’t Devialet publicly recognise the problem and either acknowledge that they can’t fix it or better, do something that does fix it. My 2nd is I’m a bit pissed that I have to accommodate the space of a separate MC phono stage when one of my main drivers for going full Devialet was that I would have a simple one box system. Unfortunately, it seems that’s not going to happen. Otherwise, the sound of my 250 Pro C/I is magnificent!

Hi, can you change to a higher output MC cartridge? My gold note MC cartridge sounds very good, and how clean is the background from a Vinly often surprised my guess. What is the benefit to use very low output MC cartridge?

[Axel]

Hi Confused,

I am not really getting why the measurement of analog input is noisy. I have a turntable connected to my 1000 Pro, no matter the MM cartridge I used before or the currentC cartridge. Both is very very quite, friend came to my house listen to it are surprised Vinly can be this clean. The Devialet background is like black black black, it’s one of the thing it surprised me. So I don’t know what those measurements reflected in real world listening.

Well, the clue is Confused has referred to low output MC cartridges which many of us use and have found with appropriate settings within the configurator,  the system sounds noisy, in particular hiss. I have no doubt that any MM cartridge will sound just fine with the configurator appropriately set. Those of us with low output MC cartridges have generally reverted to the addition of external step up transformers or a separate dedicated MC phono stage, as I have done. This issue has been communicated to Devialet and Matthew Pernot has personally looked at the problem and has concluded that the level of noise is acceptable. That is nonsense because users are troubled by the noise. As said, (considering the refusal to accept there is a noise issue) most of us in this situation have found our own solutions. I don’t blame Devialet for this because I realise how hard it is to create a noise free low output MC stage particularly when the amp has everything crammed into such a small space when low output MC cartridges benefit from expanded low noise construction requiring components in the phono amplifier section to be well spaced........not possible in a Devialet chassis. 

So, a separate MC phono amplifier absolutely works for me. My two gripes are 1, why can’t Devialet publicly recognise the problem and either acknowledge that they can’t fix it or better, do something that does fix it. My 2nd is I’m a bit pissed that I have to accommodate the space of a separate MC phono stage when one of my main drivers for going full Devialet was that I would have a simple one box system. Unfortunately, it seems that’s not going to happen. Otherwise, the sound of my 250 Pro C/I is magnificent!

Hi, can you change to a higher output MC cartridge? My gold note MC cartridge sounds very good, and how clean is the background from a Vinly often surprised my guess. What is the benefit to use very low output MC cartridge?

Which model do you use? I notice that the Donatello Red MC puts out a huge 1.8 mV which should make for a very hiss free listening experience.

[PeppaPig]

Well, the clue is Confused has referred to low output MC cartridges which many of us use and have found with appropriate settings within the configurator,  the system sounds noisy, in particular hiss. I have no doubt that any MM cartridge will sound just fine with the configurator appropriately set. Those of us with low output MC cartridges have generally reverted to the addition of external step up transformers or a separate dedicated MC phono stage, as I have done. This issue has been communicated to Devialet and Matthew Pernot has personally looked at the problem and has concluded that the level of noise is acceptable. That is nonsense because users are troubled by the noise. As said, (considering the refusal to accept there is a noise issue) most of us in this situation have found our own solutions. I don’t blame Devialet for this because I realise how hard it is to create a noise free low output MC stage particularly when the amp has everything crammed into such a small space when low output MC cartridges benefit from expanded low noise construction requiring components in the phono amplifier section to be well spaced........not possible in a Devialet chassis. 

So, a separate MC phono amplifier absolutely works for me. My two gripes are 1, why can’t Devialet publicly recognise the problem and either acknowledge that they can’t fix it or better, do something that does fix it. My 2nd is I’m a bit pissed that I have to accommodate the space of a separate MC phono stage when one of my main drivers for going full Devialet was that I would have a simple one box system. Unfortunately, it seems that’s not going to happen. Otherwise, the sound of my 250 Pro C/I is magnificent!

Hi, can you change to a higher output MC cartridge? My gold note MC cartridge sounds very good, and how clean is the background from a Vinly often surprised my guess. What is the benefit to use very low output MC cartridge?

Which model do you use? I notice that the Donatello Red MC puts out a huge 1.8 mV which should make for a very hiss free listening experience.

Donatello Gold, not sure what different between the red and gold, but it sounds very good and clean. I also has a CD player that analog output to Devialet and I don’t hear any background noise too, it’s extremely clean.

Will see if I can borrow another MC cartridge to test out.

[Music or sound]

I am using my D250 with the built in cross-over function (the main reason I got interested in the D-Premier originally)with analog out (low pass at 200Hz) for my woofers with an Anaview diy amp and using the Devialet to amplify everything above. Just thinking about all these measurements maybe it would be better to use the D250 for the low end and an other amp for the mids/highs.
Are there any measurements for the analog outs using digital inputs (i.e. only the DAC function)?

[sam1000]

I used to own Anaview based amp from a company called D-Sonic, which got replaced by d200. That was my first Devialet unit in 2016 before the upgrade. There was no contest. Let us know when you compare the sound of the two with level matching.

[Gerronwithit]

Just thinking about all these measurements maybe it would be better to use the D250 for the low end and an other amp for  the mids/highs.

Would seem to me to be a crying shame to use your 250 for low end only as the mid and high level is exceptional from that equipment

Have the opportunity to upgrade to a 1000 and have the slave on loan. I won’t try to do a comparison now as I have not long set it up. However, it has really stuffed up my AV setup. I use the Devialet to drive the front speakers and noticed last night that the whole sound was a mess and realised that although my Denon amp was controlling the Devialet via line out the Devialet was supercharging the volume to the fronts. I am going to use Audyssey today to reset it all even though Audyssey and the Devialet originally gave me problems anyway. From having the settings for the Devialet powered front speakers at -12 dB and the centre at -3.5 dB, I have all of them now at -3.5 dB. Anyway, let’s just say that going from a 250 to a 1000 changes the beast completely and not just subtly. Ferocious amount of earth shaking but detailed power at the low end, and lots more detail at mid and high end.

[markush]

So you left the line-in passthrough the same setting in the configurator? What value?

[Gerronwithit]

So you left the line-in passthrough the same setting in the configurator? What value?

0

I have rerun Audyssey and the resultant numbers were quite different from the original and the sound is markedly improved and balanced properly. Not sure why this is as I suspect there was something wrong with my original configuration, possibly the Denon, but I do know that I had the line out settings correct in the 250. I was a little daunted about configuring the 1000 but it was nowhere near as bad as I had anticipated despite Devialet’s best efforts to keep the Configurator information to a minimum. And I seem to have lost all my historic configurations as well. At least I can’t find them in Devialet’s site.