Crackling in higher bit rate streams

[Coffee_fan]

@ismarketing I have my Devialet 200 hardwired to one of the satellites of my mesh network. I stream using Devialet Air. I am streaming 192khz/24bits using Qobuz App on Mac --> Devialet AIR. I started today so I cannot say how long it will last. I had at one point those scratchy noises you get when the streaming goes sour, but so far other than that one point things are looking good to me.

BTW: I have not tried Roon, because I thought you need to have a Devialet with Core infinity to be able to stream from Roon.

[David A]

…
BTW: I have not tried Roon, because I thought you need to have a Devialet with Core infinity to be able to stream from Roon.

You can stream from Roon to a Devialet which doesn't have the Core Infinity board but you are limited to doing so by using Roon's implementation of Devialet's AIR or by using Airplay. Streaming using Roon's implementation of Devialet AIR works well, I did that from Roon to my 130 Pro for 8 to 9 months before my 130 got the CI board upgrade.

What you can't do without the CI board upgrade is to have Roon recognise your Devialet as a Roon Ready device which means you get the additional option of being able to stream to it using Roon's own RAAT protocol.

People with a CI board amp have different views on which streaming method from Roon sounds better, either using Devialet AIR or using Roon's RAAT. Some prefer AIR and some prefer RAAT, and there's a bug in the Devialet firmware which can cause problems if you're streaming using RAAT over a gigabit speed wired connection. I use and prefer RAAT but I've also used AIR for a long period and both sound very good with a good network connection. Since you don't have the CI board you don't have the choice and AIR works very well. You can also stream Qobuz from within Roon. Having said that, I would not recommend that you use Roon simply to stream either or both of Tidal and Qobuz. Roon requires a subscription and it's expensive, and Roon is primarily server software for streaming music stored on a drive on your network. I think it provides reasonable value if you're doing that and it's good to be able to use it to stream from Tidal and Qobuz as well. I use Tidal and I like the way Roon shows me everything available to me on both my own hard drive and also on Tidal when I do an artist search. In my view the ability to stream from Tidal or Qobuz using Roon is a nice extra to have but it's not enough on it's own to justify purchasing a Roon licence. The reason to buy a Roon licence is because you want to use Roon to stream music stored on your own network. If you don't want to do that then my advice is not to use Roon simply because you're going to pay a lot for a Roon licence just to be able to do something you can do for much less by using the Tidal or Qobuz apps, or alternative software. I use Roon and I think it's a great app but if I wasn't streaming music from a drive on my network I definitely would not be using Roon solely to stream Tidal.

Added: Roon can also do the first unfold of MQA from 44.1/48 kHz to 88.2/96 kHz with streams from Tidal.

[Coffee_fan]

Thanks David for the extremely clear Roon explanation. Today, as I saw the discussions on AIR vs RAAT I started suspecting that indeed Roon would be able to stream to my Devialet, but was not sure as I did not want to get into Roon just because of that. So, you provided all the clarity I needed .

I am fine streaming from Qobuz or Tidal. I have some 400 CDs that at one time I had sucked and stored into my NAS, but the reality is that I seldom listen to them.

[Coffee_fan]

@ismarketing one more thing that I realized in my experiments, again not with Roon, but possibly related:

Using AIR 3.0.4 + OS-X Yosemite or High-Sierra on a Mac:
* Tidal - I get whatever output frequency I set on Midi Audio Preferences, but Tidal Exclusive mode does not work.
* Qobuz - I can go all the way to 192khz/24 bits. Sometimes I get minor crackling at 192khz, not too often.

Using AIR 3.0.4 + Windows 10:
* Tidal works great, exclusive mode works and I get either 88.2 or 96khz tracks.
* Qobuz - Barely works, only in 44.1khz/16bits.

So, it seems that mileage varies based on the platform, maybe the same applies to your Roon install and you could try it on windows instead of the Mac mini?

[ismarketing]

Hi folks. Just an update. I have tried every conceivable variable in my system that could be causing these dropouts. Today I tried hard wiring my 120 directly to a new router – not the Orbi – and my Mac mini directly to that new router. The drop outs were still they are at anything above 2496.  Given that I also heard dropouts with a test configuration of rune on a different Mac also hardwired to a different router, my conclusion is this is a Dev and Roon Software issue, or I have a bad network card in my 120. I have shared this with Devialet, and I am awaiting a response . I’ll update as possible.

For anyone following this thread, I’d appreciate knowing if you can successfully stream anything at 2496 or above to your non pro expert using Roon?  Thanks

[flohmann]

Hi folks. Just an update. I have tried every conceivable variable in my system that could be causing these dropouts. Today I tried hard wiring my 120 directly to a new router – not the Orbi – and my Mac mini directly to that new router. The drop outs were still they are at anything above 2496.  Given that I also heard dropouts with a test configuration of rune on a different Mac also hardwired to a different router, my conclusion is this is a Dev and Roon Software issue, or I have a bad network card in my 120. I have shared this with Devialet, and I am awaiting a response . I’ll update as possible.

For anyone following this thread, I’d appreciate knowing if you can successfully stream anything at 2496 or above to your non pro expert using Roon?  Thanks

As mentioned earlier, I still get occasional crackling at 24/192, both from Qobuz and from locally stored files. My Devialet is 1000 Pro CI, connected by Ethernet to router, which is also connected by Ethernet to my Roon Core Mac mini, so apparently not reserved to only pre-Pro units. For now, I've "solved" the problem by limiting Qobuz to 24/96.

[ismarketing]

Hi folks. Just an update. I have tried every conceivable variable in my system that could be causing these dropouts. Today I tried hard wiring my 120 directly to a new router – not the Orbi – and my Mac mini directly to that new router. The drop outs were still they are at anything above 2496.  Given that I also heard dropouts with a test configuration of rune on a different Mac also hardwired to a different router, my conclusion is this is a Dev and Roon Software issue, or I have a bad network card in my 120. I have shared this with Devialet, and I am awaiting a response . I’ll update as possible.

For anyone following this thread, I’d appreciate knowing if you can successfully stream anything at 2496 or above to your non pro expert using Roon?  Thanks

As mentioned earlier, I still get occasional crackling at 24/192, both from Qobuz and from locally stored files. My Devialet is 1000 Pro CI, connected by Ethernet to router, which is also connected by Ethernet to my Roon Core Mac mini, so apparently not reserved to only pre-Pro units. For now, I've "solved" the problem by limiting Qobuz to 24/96.

Thanks F.  I appreciate your help and I’m hoping for a fix rather than your smart workaround.  God to know, I guess, that this Is an issue for pro users as well. But I am still curious if anyone who has a non-pro unit can successfully stream above 2496 without dropouts using Roon. Thanks again.

[David A]

Hi folks. Just an update. I have tried every conceivable variable in my system that could be causing these dropouts. Today I tried hard wiring my 120 directly to a new router – not the Orbi – and my Mac mini directly to that new router. The drop outs were still they are at anything above 2496.  Given that I also heard dropouts with a test configuration of rune on a different Mac also hardwired to a different router, my conclusion is this is a Dev and Roon Software issue, or I have a bad network card in my 120. I have shared this with Devialet, and I am awaiting a response . I’ll update as possible.

For anyone following this thread, I’d appreciate knowing if you can successfully stream anything at 2496 or above to your non pro expert using Roon?  Thanks

I think it is a Devialet issue.

When people started reporting the problem with the CI Expert Pros and RAAT, Roon investigated at their end and ended up saying that it was a problem with how the Devialet was processing the ethernet stream. The reason why it seems to be an issue with high res files seems to be the increased amount of data being streamed isn't handled successfully by the Devialet which is why reducing the speed of the ethernet connection apparently works, it slows down the arrival of the ethernet packets to a pace that the Devialet can handle. At least that's the way I understand things.

There are lots of issues which can occur on a network which affect things and can result in the same or similar problems, or exacerbate a particular problem so it's always possible that someone with a given issue such as the RAAT problem can experience that problem more severely than another person because they have a second issue exacerbating it.

I'm going to step out on a limb and say that Devialet probably kept the same ethernet data handling code in the Expert Pro range as they did in the Expert range so both ranges are susceptible to issues with high resolution streams. We just haven't seen as many reports of the issue with the Expert range as we have with the Expert Pro range and RAAT because it doesn't occur as frequently.

So why do you seem to be experiencing it more severely than others with Expert models? I wonder whether you have another issue affecting your network which is exacerbating this. Have you checked Roon's page about best networking practices:  https://kb.roonlabs.com/Networking_Best_Practices         There may be something there which could help you reduce or eliminate your problem. Otherwise I think that you,. like those of us with Expert Pro models with the CI board and the RAAT problem, are stuck with using workarounds like reducing the speed of the ethernet connection to 100 Mbps or using wifi until Devialet issue a fix in new firmware.

[thumb5]

As I remember (ready to be corrected) the non-Expert models use a Wiznet 10/100 Mbps Ethernet device which implements the TCP/UDP/IP network stack in hardware. This might also be the case for the Expert Pro models without Core Infinity. On the other hand, the Expert Pro models with Core Infinity are based on an i.MX6 system-on-chip processor which has a Gbit-capable Ethernet MAC built in but will have a different Ethernet driver and a software implementation of TCP/UDP/IP. These implementations are quite different, but nevertheless they might each have their own limitations and flaws that could cause similar-sounding audio drop-outs. The application layer on top of the TCP/UDP/IP stack might still be similar though not identical.

[David A]

@thumb5 ,

I said I was going to step out on a limb. Looks like I stepped out on the wrong limb :-)

Thanks for the info.