Devialet pro and Chord technology

[Jean-Marie]

[...]
I do not know how internally 1000Pro handle digital and analog signal input and to which extend the dac chip is involve with analog input.Would be interesting to find out.

The Devialet runs all analog inputs through an ADC, by default at 24bits/96kHz (which i believe you can configure to 24/192 in the configurator if I remember correctly) and then handle them as any other digital stream or input.

The ADC -> DAC operation is fully transparent except that low pass filter around 48kHz to avoid aliasing (96kHz if you use 24/192), so I am not surprised that the Devialet lets any characteristics of the analog sources connected to it faithfully flowing through. 

Jean-Marie

We have communicated before and I value and respect your knowledge about high end audio.  Since this topic has come up again, let me rehash the issue.  If the chord Dave and M scaler work so well with the 1000 pro, would it be safe to assume that so will the dCS Vivaldi Upsampler? Thank you

Yes it would for whatever happens in the frequency range below 48kHz (or 96kHz depending on how you configure it) and to the SNR and THD corresponding to 24bits which is around 144dB.

After that it is a matter of opinion, some people are convinced that what happens beyond those frequency matter, other don't (I belong to the group that considers that what happens beyond the bandwidth of the ear is at best irrelevant and at worse detrimental if improperly handled, but be aware that this position is not universally accepted within high end audio).

I am also of the opinion that the ADC and DAC stages of most equipment (unless grossly mis engineered) is absolutely transparent to the ear and therefore what matters are the filters and the analog stages of the equipment. 

This is what make de Devialet a unique amplifier and if the dCS Vivaldi Upsampler is bringing you benefits, I would assume that they are coming from the analog and/or filtering stages and therefore would faithfully be carried through by using the Devialet as a pure amplifier. 

it would be ideal if you could test it on your own system before taking the plunge, because at the end of the day, what really matters is the perception that we have within our environment. 

Jean-Marie

[gtahan]

I'd like to share my experience. I am using Lumin T2 as a streamer and DAC with D400pro and it sounds far better than D400pro alone.

I am using the analog input of D400.

[Confused]

The Devialet runs all analog inputs through an ADC, by default at 24bits/96kHz (which i believe you can configure to 24/192 in the configurator if I remember correctly) and then handle them as any other digital stream or input.

The ADC -> DAC operation is fully transparent except that low pass filter around 48kHz to avoid aliasing (96kHz if you use 24/192), so I am not surprised that the Devialet lets any characteristics of the analog sources connected to it faithfully flowing through. 

Jean-Marie

We have communicated before and I value and respect your knowledge about high end audio.  Since this topic has come up again, let me rehash the issue.  If the chord Dave and M scaler work so well with the 1000 pro, would it be safe to assume that so will the dCS Vivaldi Upsampler? Thank you

Yes it would for whatever happens in the frequency range below 48kHz (or 96kHz depending on how you configure it) and to the SNR and THD corresponding to 24bits which is around 144dB.

After that it is a matter of opinion, some people are convinced that what happens beyond those frequency matter, other don't (I belong to the group that considers that what happens beyond the bandwidth of the ear is at best irrelevant and at worse detrimental if improperly handled, but be aware that this position is not universally accepted within high end audio).

I am also of the opinion that the ADC and DAC stages of most equipment (unless grossly mis engineered) is absolutely transparent to the ear and therefore what matters are the filters and the analog stages of the equipment. 

This is what make de Devialet a unique amplifier and if the dCS Vivaldi Upsampler is bringing you benefits, I would assume that they are coming from the analog and/or filtering stages and therefore would faithfully be carried through by using the Devialet as a pure amplifier. 

it would be ideal if you could test it on your own system before taking the plunge, because at the end of the day, what really matters is the perception that we have within our environment. 

Jean-Marie

I am a bit late relying to this - I missed it when posted.

As a point to note, the dCS Upsampler is not a DAC, so it has no analogue stage.  Basically it is digital in, digital out.  It can play music from a USB drive to act as a music server.  It is now Roon Ready, and can accept music via AirPlay, Tidal, USB and so on.

So it is better described as an upsampling network attached end point, or something like that.

I have listened to one feeding a Devialet D800 (with and without the associated master clock), and I have to say that it is just about the best thing I have ever heard feeding a D800.

I would have bought one, but for me it was far too much money for something that is in product category that seems to be developing very rapidly these days.

Would it be any good with a 1000 Pro?  I suspect it would, but only if the very high cost was not a concern.  I have also seen reports that the dCS Vivaldi Master Clock is improved if used with the Mutec REF10 as a 10Mhz reference clock.  So that is a £3k+ reference clock to feed a £12K Master clock, to feed a £17K upsampler, which is more money than is needed to buy a 100Pro.  So not exactly the value proposition.  Which probably explains why I never bought the Vivaldi kit, and now run a cheap and cheerful Mutec MC3+USB + Mutec REF10, with upsampling thanks to budget price HQPlayer software.  Probably not as good as the Vivaldi kit, but it gets close and leaves enough change to buy a modest car, a new Ducati, retire a year earlier, have a very good night out, or something like that.

It was very good with the D800 though!  And cheaper at the time I listened to one.  If anyone has a second-hand one for £4K or cheaper, I'm in!

[Pim]

We have communicated before and I value and respect your knowledge about high end audio.  Since this topic has come up again, let me rehash the issue.  If the chord Dave and M scaler work so well with the 1000 pro, would it be safe to assume that so will the dCS Vivaldi Upsampler? Thank you

Yes it would for whatever happens in the frequency range below 48kHz (or 96kHz depending on how you configure it) and to the SNR and THD corresponding to 24bits which is around 144dB.

After that it is a matter of opinion, some people are convinced that what happens beyond those frequency matter, other don't (I belong to the group that considers that what happens beyond the bandwidth of the ear is at best irrelevant and at worse detrimental if improperly handled, but be aware that this position is not universally accepted within high end audio).

I am also of the opinion that the ADC and DAC stages of most equipment (unless grossly mis engineered) is absolutely transparent to the ear and therefore what matters are the filters and the analog stages of the equipment. 

This is what make de Devialet a unique amplifier and if the dCS Vivaldi Upsampler is bringing you benefits, I would assume that they are coming from the analog and/or filtering stages and therefore would faithfully be carried through by using the Devialet as a pure amplifier. 

it would be ideal if you could test it on your own system before taking the plunge, because at the end of the day, what really matters is the perception that we have within our environment. 

Jean-Marie

I am a bit late relying to this - I missed it when posted.

As a point to note, the dCS Upsampler is not a DAC, so it has no analogue stage.  Basically it is digital in, digital out.  It can play music from a USB drive to act as a music server.  It is now Roon Ready, and can accept music via AirPlay, Tidal, USB and so on.

So it is better described as an upsampling network attached end point, or something like that.

I have listened to one feeding a Devialet D800 (with and without the associated master clock), and I have to say that it is just about the best thing I have ever heard feeding a D800.

I would have bought one, but for me it was far too much money for something that is in product category that seems to be developing very rapidly these days.

Would it be any good with a 1000 Pro?  I suspect it would, but only if the very high cost was not a concern.  I have also seen reports that the dCS Vivaldi Master Clock is improved if used with the Mutec REF10 as a 10Mhz reference clock.  So that is a £3k+ reference clock to feed a £12K Master clock, to feed a £17K upsampler, which is more money than is needed to buy a 100Pro.  So not exactly the value proposition.  Which probably explains why I never bought the Vivaldi kit, and now run a cheap and cheerful Mutec MC3+USB + Mutec REF10, with upsampling thanks to budget price HQPlayer software.  Probably not as good as the Vivaldi kit, but it gets close and leaves enough change to buy a modest car, a new Ducati, retire a year earlier, have a very good night out, or something like that.

It was very good with the D800 though!  And cheaper at the time I listened to one.  If anyone has a second-hand one for £4K or cheaper, I'm in!

Confused, you and others have written about the upsampler here before. What is it about the sound that makes it the best you had ever heard? Is it more open? More full bodied? Is there more detail? I'd be very interested to know what it is.

[Jean-Marie]

We have communicated before and I value and respect your knowledge about high end audio.  Since this topic has come up again, let me rehash the issue.  If the chord Dave and M scaler work so well with the 1000 pro, would it be safe to assume that so will the dCS Vivaldi Upsampler? Thank you

Yes it would for whatever happens in the frequency range below 48kHz (or 96kHz depending on how you configure it) and to the SNR and THD corresponding to 24bits which is around 144dB.

After that it is a matter of opinion, some people are convinced that what happens beyond those frequency matter, other don't (I belong to the group that considers that what happens beyond the bandwidth of the ear is at best irrelevant and at worse detrimental if improperly handled, but be aware that this position is not universally accepted within high end audio).

I am also of the opinion that the ADC and DAC stages of most equipment (unless grossly mis engineered) is absolutely transparent to the ear and therefore what matters are the filters and the analog stages of the equipment. 

This is what make de Devialet a unique amplifier and if the dCS Vivaldi Upsampler is bringing you benefits, I would assume that they are coming from the analog and/or filtering stages and therefore would faithfully be carried through by using the Devialet as a pure amplifier. 

it would be ideal if you could test it on your own system before taking the plunge, because at the end of the day, what really matters is the perception that we have within our environment. 

Jean-Marie

I am a bit late relying to this - I missed it when posted.

As a point to note, the dCS Upsampler is not a DAC, so it has no analogue stage.  Basically it is digital in, digital out.  It can play music from a USB drive to act as a music server.  It is now Roon Ready, and can accept music via AirPlay, Tidal, USB and so on.

So it is better described as an upsampling network attached end point, or something like that.

I have listened to one feeding a Devialet D800 (with and without the associated master clock), and I have to say that it is just about the best thing I have ever heard feeding a D800.

I would have bought one, but for me it was far too much money for something that is in product category that seems to be developing very rapidly these days.

Would it be any good with a 1000 Pro?  I suspect it would, but only if the very high cost was not a concern.  I have also seen reports that the dCS Vivaldi Master Clock is improved if used with the Mutec REF10 as a 10Mhz reference clock.  So that is a £3k+ reference clock to feed a £12K Master clock, to feed a £17K upsampler, which is more money than is needed to buy a 100Pro.  So not exactly the value proposition.  Which probably explains why I never bought the Vivaldi kit, and now run a cheap and cheerful Mutec MC3+USB + Mutec REF10, with upsampling thanks to budget price HQPlayer software.  Probably not as good as the Vivaldi kit, but it gets close and leaves enough change to buy a modest car, a new Ducati, retire a year earlier, have a very good night out, or something like that.

It was very good with the D800 though!  And cheaper at the time I listened to one.  If anyone has a second-hand one for £4K or cheaper, I'm in!

It is never too late to correct a mistake.

Since there is no analog stage involved, most of what I have said here is not applicable.

However, since the Devialet is one of the most (if not the most) accurate chain to reproduce a digital stream, it is not surprising that it accurately reproduces any benefit another device would bring to the chain before.

Jean-Marie

[salk61]

Yes it would for whatever happens in the frequency range below 48kHz (or 96kHz depending on how you configure it) and to the SNR and THD corresponding to 24bits which is around 144dB.

After that it is a matter of opinion, some people are convinced that what happens beyond those frequency matter, other don't (I belong to the group that considers that what happens beyond the bandwidth of the ear is at best irrelevant and at worse detrimental if improperly handled, but be aware that this position is not universally accepted within high end audio).

I am also of the opinion that the ADC and DAC stages of most equipment (unless grossly mis engineered) is absolutely transparent to the ear and therefore what matters are the filters and the analog stages of the equipment. 

This is what make de Devialet a unique amplifier and if the dCS Vivaldi Upsampler is bringing you benefits, I would assume that they are coming from the analog and/or filtering stages and therefore would faithfully be carried through by using the Devialet as a pure amplifier. 

it would be ideal if you could test it on your own system before taking the plunge, because at the end of the day, what really matters is the perception that we have within our environment. 

Jean-Marie

I am a bit late relying to this - I missed it when posted.

As a point to note, the dCS Upsampler is not a DAC, so it has no analogue stage.  Basically it is digital in, digital out.  It can play music from a USB drive to act as a music server.  It is now Roon Ready, and can accept music via AirPlay, Tidal, USB and so on.

So it is better described as an upsampling network attached end point, or something like that.

I have listened to one feeding a Devialet D800 (with and without the associated master clock), and I have to say that it is just about the best thing I have ever heard feeding a D800.

I would have bought one, but for me it was far too much money for something that is in product category that seems to be developing very rapidly these days.

Would it be any good with a 1000 Pro?  I suspect it would, but only if the very high cost was not a concern.  I have also seen reports that the dCS Vivaldi Master Clock is improved if used with the Mutec REF10 as a 10Mhz reference clock.  So that is a £3k+ reference clock to feed a £12K Master clock, to feed a £17K upsampler, which is more money than is needed to buy a 100Pro.  So not exactly the value proposition.  Which probably explains why I never bought the Vivaldi kit, and now run a cheap and cheerful Mutec MC3+USB + Mutec REF10, with upsampling thanks to budget price HQPlayer software.  Probably not as good as the Vivaldi kit, but it gets close and leaves enough change to buy a modest car, a new Ducati, retire a year earlier, have a very good night out, or something like that.

It was very good with the D800 though!  And cheaper at the time I listened to one.  If anyone has a second-hand one for £4K or cheaper, I'm in!

It is never too late to correct a mistake.

Since there is no analog stage involved, most of what I have said here is not applicable.

However, since the Devialet is one of the most (if not the most) accurate chain to reproduce a digital stream, it is not surprising that it accurately reproduces any benefit another device would bring to the chain before.

Jean-Marie

Which brings me to a point: Since there is an opinion that the Devialet very accurately reproduces what is fed into it, of the 2 dCS products which one would be a better choice? The Vivaldi Upsampler or the Rossini DAC; the latter is only $1000 more expensive. I would be very interested and curious to know. Thanks

[Confused]

A few questions have emerged here:

@Pim - What is it about the sound that makes it the best you had ever heard?  A good question, and I have to be honest here, it has now been about four years since I have listened to one, and since this time I have moved from the Expert to The Pro.  I even had a search through this forum to find any listening observations that I may have made nearer the time.  I did find some, but these were somewhat imprecise, just stating "it sounds superb" does not tell us much.  (other than it sounded superb)  OK - A massive caveat here as I am going from long term memory, but picking up on you specific points I do not recall it sounding "more full bodied".  It is more of a case of sounding more natural, coherent, and this with the detail.  I listened to the Upsampler on two occasions.  One time we we tried running AES/EBU to the Devialet comparing upsampling to 24/192 to DSD64.  This I remember well, because OAC's Alasdair and a guy from dCS both claimed that it sounded best this way.  I was of the opinion that this was unlikely, the Davialet needs a PCM feed, so all were are doing is taking 16/44.1 PCM, upsampling this to DSD64, for the Devialet to then have to use the "MAT Engine" to convert back to PCM.  Anyway, after listening for myself, I had to agree that I was wrong, to my ears as well it sounded better in DSD64 mode.  At his time someone mentioned the phrase "it sounds more engaging", this I remember well because it is just about as good a way as I can think of describing it.  The presentation with the Updampler is more engaging, it is like one step away from the irritations of audio reproduction and one step nearer to the real thing. 

Of course, you would need to listen for yourself to understand if "a bit more natural and engaging" is worth the considerable expense.

One thought occurs to me, if we do go back four years in time, I thought the the best things I have heard with a Devialet were the Aurender N10 and W20, and then the small step up to the dSC Upsampler.  (all capable of feeding the Devialet via AES/EBU), but now things are different as we have moved to the Pro models.  The point is, I would say that the difference between the Expert and Pro is greater than the difference between the D800 fed by an Audernder N10 and the dCS Upsampler.  it is after all a digital source, so there is a limit to what it can do to the overall sound quality of the system.  Or to put it another way, if you want "more full bodied", spend the money on different speakers, if you want "more detailed", the Pro most definitely delivers this over the old Expert model.  So I would say the Upsampler could be considered as the "icing on the cake" for a system that you were already satisfied with, it is unlikely to transform a system you are not happy with to one that you are.  The worlds most expensive cake icing perhaps.

I recall that @f1eng and @Guillaume were at the OAC event where they were running the Upampler with a D800.  As it happens, I can actually remember discussing it with f1eng, he did not say too much about sound quality, he just commented that he used AirPlay to play a track from his 'phone to the Upsampler, and said he was impressed by how good the system sounded running this way.  I think Guillaume described it as a "game changer", which is similarly useful to my "sounds superb", I guess.  @Guillaume - apologies for putting you on the spot, and I am mindful that all this was four years ago, but can you remember anything about how the Upsampler sounded?

@salk61  of the 2 dCS products which one would be a better choice? The Vivaldi Upsampler or the Rossini DAC; the latter is only $1000 more expensive. - OK this one can be explained.

Two DCS products, but you would be doing something very different between the two.  The Upsampler is the purist choice and from a technical perspective the way to go.  All you are doing with the Upsampler is producing a very high quality digital feed via AES/EBU for your Devialet.  With the Rossini, you first need a digital source to feed the Rossini itself, which could be as simple as a computer running Roon.  The Rossini is a DAC, so the output is analogue, which you would then feed to the Devialet.  The Rossini is a fine dac so will produce a high quality analogue output, but when feeding this to the Devialet, the first thing the Devialet will do is convert the analogue this to digital using it's ADC, as the Devialet needs PCM digital to feed the ADH core.  The ADH core will then convert this digital back to analogue and amplify.  As @Jean-Marie mentions, the Devialet is transparent enough that you would get the "flavour" of the Rossini, which for some reason you might subjectively enjoy, but you are still using the Deviaet DAC, which although is good, it is not measurably 100% perfect, neither is the Rossini, so you have two measurably imperfect devices in the chain, when you only need one, and that with the Devialet ADC on top.

I would put it this way, in other threads there have been lots of discussions about Devialet measurements.  Whatever you make of these measurements, one thing is clear, the various inputs to the Devialet measure differently.  In terms of hierarchy, the S/PDIF (AES/EBU) inputs come out on top, with the lowest measured noise and lowest distortion, the analogue inputs come out bottom, with relatively higher noise and distortion.  Why?  Well there is no mystery here, the analogue input had the extra step of the analogue digital conversion in the chain.

So, with the Upsampler you have a very expensive box that should provide a very high quality input to the best measuring input on you Devialet.  Although costly, this does make some sense from a technical perspective.  With the Rossini, you have a very expensive box that will force you to use the worse measuring input of your Devialet.  This makes little sense, and in absolute technical terms would offer inferior performance to just using AIR or USB.  Subjectively, there might be some out there that would prefer the sound of the Rossini, for them the best advice would probably be to sell the Devialet and use a more traditional amplifier for power.

[Confused]

In other news...

Have the guys at Oxford Audio Consultants been reading this thread and getting ideas?  These pictures appeared appeared on their Twitter feed this week.


   

   

If I am not very much mistaken, I think this is a 1000 Pro, fed by the dCS Vivaldi Upsampler and Clock.  Plus the new Wilson Audio Sasha DAW's, a Sillpoints rack and Shunyata Venom UK 6?  (cheque books at the ready guys!)

So, @oxfordaudio - You now have the benefit of both recent listening experience with the Upsampler and have listened to the Upsampler with the Pro.  How would you describe the sound?

Also, is that a new carpet in the listening room?  

[salk61]

A few questions have emerged here:

@Pim - What is it about the sound that makes it the best you had ever heard?  A good question, and I have to be honest here, it has now been about four years since I have listened to one, and since this time I have moved from the Expert to The Pro.  I even had a search through this forum to find any listening observations that I may have made nearer the time.  I did find some, but these were somewhat imprecise, just stating "it sounds superb" does not tell us much.  (other than it sounded superb)  OK - A massive caveat here as I am going from long term memory, but picking up on you specific points I do not recall it sounding "more full bodied".  It is more of a case of sounding more natural, coherent, and this with the detail.  I listened to the Upsampler on two occasions.  One time we we tried running AES/EBU to the Devialet comparing upsampling to 24/192 to DSD64.  This I remember well, because OAC's Alasdair and a guy from dCS both claimed that it sounded best this way.  I was of the opinion that this was unlikely, the Davialet needs a PCM feed, so all were are doing is taking 16/44.1 PCM, upsampling this to DSD64, for the Devialet to then have to use the "MAT Engine" to convert back to PCM.  Anyway, after listening for myself, I had to agree that I was wrong, to my ears as well it sounded better in DSD64 mode.  At his time someone mentioned the phrase "it sounds more engaging", this I remember well because it is just about as good a way as I can think of describing it.  The presentation with the Updampler is more engaging, it is like one step away from the irritations of audio reproduction and one step nearer to the real thing. 

Of course, you would need to listen for yourself to understand if "a bit more natural and engaging" is worth the considerable expense.

One thought occurs to me, if we do go back four years in time, I thought the the best things I have heard with a Devialet were the Aurender N10 and W20, and then the small step up to the dSC Upsampler.  (all capable of feeding the Devialet via AES/EBU), but now things are different as we have moved to the Pro models.  The point is, I would say that the difference between the Expert and Pro is greater than the difference between the D800 fed by an Audernder N10 and the dCS Upsampler.  it is after all a digital source, so there is a limit to what it can do to the overall sound quality of the system.  Or to put it another way, if you want "more full bodied", spend the money on different speakers, if you want "more detailed", the Pro most definitely delivers this over the old Expert model.  So I would say the Upsampler could be considered as the "icing on the cake" for a system that you were already satisfied with, it is unlikely to transform a system you are not happy with to one that you are.  The worlds most expensive cake icing perhaps.

I recall that @f1eng and @Guillaume were at the OAC event where they were running the Upampler with a D800.  As it happens, I can actually remember discussing it with f1eng, he did not say too much about sound quality, he just commented that he used AirPlay to play a track from his 'phone to the Upsampler, and said he was impressed by how good the system sounded running this way.  I think Guillaume described it as a "game changer", which is similarly useful to my "sounds superb", I guess.  @Guillaume - apologies for putting you on the spot, and I am mindful that all this was four years ago, but can you remember anything about how the Upsampler sounded?

@salk61  of the 2 dCS products which one would be a better choice? The Vivaldi Upsampler or the Rossini DAC; the latter is only $1000 more expensive. - OK this one can be explained.

Two DCS products, but you would be doing something very different between the two.  The Upsampler is the purist choice and from a technical perspective the way to go.  All you are doing with the Upsampler is producing a very high quality digital feed via AES/EBU for your Devialet.  With the Rossini, you first need a digital source to feed the Rossini itself, which could be as simple as a computer running Roon.  The Rossini is a DAC, so the output is analogue, which you would then feed to the Devialet.  The Rossini is a fine dac so will produce a high quality analogue output, but when feeding this to the Devialet, the first thing the Devialet will do is convert the analogue this to digital using it's ADC, as the Devialet needs PCM digital to feed the ADH core.  The ADH core will then convert this digital back to analogue and amplify.  As @Jean-Marie mentions, the Devialet is transparent enough that you would get the "flavour" of the Rossini, which for some reason you might subjectively enjoy, but you are still using the Deviaet DAC, which although is good, it is not measurably 100% perfect, neither is the Rossini, so you have two measurably imperfect devices in the chain, when you only need one, and that with the Devialet ADC on top.

I would put it this way, in other threads there have been lots of discussions about Devialet measurements.  Whatever you make of these measurements, one thing is clear, the various inputs to the Devialet measure differently.  In terms of hierarchy, the S/PDIF (AES/EBU) inputs come out on top, with the lowest measured noise and lowest distortion, the analogue inputs come out bottom, with relatively higher noise and distortion.  Why?  Well there is no mystery here, the analogue input had the extra step of the analogue digital conversion in the chain.

So, with the Upsampler you have a very expensive box that should provide a very high quality input to the best measuring input on you Devialet.  Although costly, this does make some sense from a technical perspective.  With the Rossini, you have a very expensive box that will force you to use the worse measuring input of your Devialet.  This makes little sense, and in absolute technical terms would offer inferior performance to just using AIR or USB.  Subjectively, there might be some out there that would prefer the sound of the Rossini, for them the best advice would probably be to sell the Devialet and use a more traditional amplifier for power.

Thank you, that was an excellent explanation; very informative and enlightening. I am definitely going to be saving up for a vivaldi upsampler. There is one more question that I had about which I am confused. I think some people have mentioned, unless I totally misunderstood what they were saying, that they are using the Vivaldi upsampler with the vivaldi clock on a Devialet. I am not sure if it is necessary because the Devialet has no word clock input. How can that be of any benefit then?

[Gerronwithit]

I have to say, I love that stand and the simple symmetry of the silvery things sitting on it. Gorgeous! Bet it sounds pretty good too. Shame about the price tag.