Dialog vs. Airport

[meeotch]

I have two Phantoms running in stereo via a Dialog, and have been having a back-and-forth with Devialet support for over a year, regarding the "audio dropouts when connected via wifi" issue.  (Worse when using the Dialog's optical input, but still present even when running optical directly to one of the Phantoms.  I have only one audio source, an optical out from a computer.)  I know that PLC / Ethernet is claimed to be "more reliable", but for the purpose of this thread, please accept that a wired connection isn't a solution for me.

The latest tech support rep said something very curious to me today.  They want me to try installing an Airport Express, in order to create a dedicated network for the Phantoms / Dialog.  I asked, "You mean to replace the wifi network that the Dialog sets up itself?"  And the rep went on to try and convince me that the Phantoms were communicating to the Dialog via my *home wifi network*.  (Which I know not to be true, since my home network is locked to all but a specified set of MAC addresses.)  We actually argued about this for a bit, and then I just let it go.

My understanding is that the Dialog only uses its connection to the local net to download updates and to communicate with spark.  The connection from Dialog->Phantoms, when the Phantoms are unwired, is via the Dialog's own private wifi network(s).  So introducing an Airport Express into the mix would only serve to improve streaming *to* the Dialog, which isn't something I'm doing.

These pages on Devialet's site seem to agree with me:  https://help.devialet.com/hc/en-us/artic...nect-to-it
https://help.devialet.com/hc/en-us/artic...ntom-Setup

Can someone tell me if I'm nuts, and fundamentally misunderstanding how the system operates - or if Devialet's own support people have this fundamental misunderstanding?

[angenet]

Hi
I will try to elaborate from the way I understand....

You are quite right about dialog own mesh network... but you also need to understand that the mesh network is also very useful for streaming application and online radio.. it is not only for update.. but for streaming purposes.. as well...

I may be wrong .. but i thing the problem is the type of wifi connection you’ve got at home..
Have you got any 5ghz or AC wifi connection?

Dialog and phantoms work very well on a 5ghz band.. and that’s probably why Devialet suggested to use the airport express .. as the airport will create a dedicated 5ghz connection that will be prioritised by the dialog and phantoms..

If you do have a decent router and AP.. then please create a 5ghz band only wifi connection for testing purpose... then switch off all 2.4 band.. and see if that will have a effect on the performance..

When you search for new wifi connection from your smart device do you see the following in the list of available SSID?
dialogcetwork24xxxxx (2.4ghz) and dialognetwork50xxxx for 5ghz ... ? Those are the dedicated network used by Dialog..

I came across similar trouble when I got my first Phantoms back in 2015...using a used Draytek router , i created a dedicated 5ghz network and my ipad with spark was connected to the network... and the problem was solved..

Good Luck

[meeotch]

My home network is dual band 5GHz & 2.4GHz. I can see in Spark when the Phantoms are connected via a 5GHz connection, and you're right - 5Ghz works better. In fact, when they drop back to 2.4GHz, as they sometimes do, they're basically unlistenable due to dropouts.

I think you may have misread my original assertion, though... if I'm reading those Devialet pages correctly: The Dialog's networks (5 / 2.4GHz) are used for all communication Dialog->Phantoms. Any "external" network is solely for downloading updates, communication Dialog->Spark, and streaming music to the Dialog. That is, when there's a Dialog involved, and no wired connection to the speakers, all communication to the speakers goes over the Dialog's dedicated network - the speakers are not connected to any other wifi network.

My audio is all going direct via optical cable, no wireless streaming, and I don't use Spark for anything except resetting the system (which happens far too often for my taste). So if my theory is correct, I should be able to shut down my home wireless network completely, and the system will still work. I'll try that when I get home.

But if there's a way of forcing the Phantoms to use a non-Dialog ("external") wifi network for communication, and still play in stereo, I'd love to know what it is. I'm convinced that the audio dropouts are due to the poor quality of the communication going over the Dialog's dedicated network. But I don't think there's a way of bypassing the Dialog network in a stereo config.

[streamy]

My home network is dual band 5GHz & 2.4GHz.  I can see in Spark when the Phantoms are connected via a 5GHz connection, and you're right - 5Ghz works better.  In fact, when they drop back to 2.4GHz, as they sometimes do, they're basically unlistenable due to dropouts.

I think you may have misread my original assertion, though...  if I'm reading those Devialet pages correctly:  The Dialog's networks (5 / 2.4GHz) are used for all communication Dialog->Phantoms.  Any "external" network is solely for downloading updates, communication Dialog->Spark, and streaming music to the Dialog.  That is, when there's a Dialog involved, and no wired connection to the speakers, all communication to the speakers goes over the Dialog's dedicated network - the speakers are not connected to any other wifi network.

My audio is all going direct via optical cable, no wireless streaming, and I don't use Spark for anything except resetting the system (which happens far too often for my taste).  So if my theory is correct, I should be able to shut down my home wireless network completely, and the system will still work.  I'll try that when I get home.

But if there's a way of forcing the Phantoms to use a non-Dialog ("external") wifi network for communication, and still play in stereo, I'd love to know what it is.  I'm convinced that the audio dropouts are due to the poor quality of the communication going over the Dialog's dedicated network.  But I don't think there's a way of bypassing the Dialog network in a stereo config.

Maybe it‘s off topic for your question. How do you exclude that the Phantoms and Dialog do not communicate through their internal PLC? As PLC is Devialet’s preferred path of communication between the Phantoms and Dialog your problem could be triggered by the Phantoms or Dialog trying to use tht PLC path for communication.
Another source of problem could be that close neighborhood uses wifi and therefore might disturbed the timing delicate Devialet wifi network. Maybe it is helpful when you observe which Channels the Devialet wifi uses and if it stably stays on the 5GHz network.
In general I agree with your understanding about how Devialet and Phantoms communicate. It is a pity that Dialog’s optical input has some glitches (some noise and from time to time cracks or tiny dropouts (<100ms). The path would be shorter optical Dialog => Phantoms rather than optical Phantom => Dialog=> Phantoms.

[meeotch]

>> How do you exclude that the Phantoms and Dialog do not communicate through their internal PLC?

They are not on the same electrical circuit. But your theory about the Phantoms attempting to make PLC connections, and those failed attempts causing problems is an interesting one. In general, I'm finding that all the Devialet gear tries to "outsmart" the user in an Apple-esque way, and fails as often as it succeeds. There really should be user settings for all this stuff, even if those settings were hidden on an Advanced User page. The constant resetting of the volume is another good example, as is the fact that you can't tell the Dialog which wifi channels to use. (In my case, it often picks incorrectly on its own.) Just let me tell the equipment what to do!

...which relates to your second point: The only "neighboring network" I have control over is my own, and I have moved its channels away from the Dialog's channels. But it is also the only network in the building - so the other neighboring signals are lower than would otherwise be expected in an urban environment. To your question: yes, I've confirmed that audio dropouts are present when the Phantoms are on 5GHz, both with optical in to the Dialog (worse) and directly into one Phantom (better).

Anyway, to get back to the original topic: My theory is confirmed. I rebooted my wifi router while playing music through the Phantoms, and they continued to operate. The Devialet rep was wrong, and Dialog->Phantom communication does in fact use the dedicated Dialog network. It's unbelievably frustrating to have been going back and forth with their Tech support for a year now, only to be assigned to someone who doesn't even know how the devices work. (And during that year, never once did they entertain the idea that the hardware is flawed. It's just a constant insistence that I must have set it up wrong.)

[angenet]

My home network is dual band 5GHz & 2.4GHz.  I can see in Spark when the Phantoms are connected via a 5GHz connection, and you're right - 5Ghz works better.  In fact, when they drop back to 2.4GHz, as they sometimes do, they're basically unlistenable due to dropouts.

I think you may have misread my original assertion, though...  if I'm reading those Devialet pages correctly:  The Dialog's networks (5 / 2.4GHz) are used for all communication Dialog->Phantoms.  Any "external" network is solely for downloading updates, communication Dialog->Spark, and streaming music to the Dialog.  That is, when there's a Dialog involved, and no wired connection to the speakers, all communication to the speakers goes over the Dialog's dedicated network - the speakers are not connected to any other wifi network.

My audio is all going direct via optical cable, no wireless streaming, and I don't use Spark for anything except resetting the system (which happens far too often for my taste).  So if my theory is correct, I should be able to shut down my home wireless network completely, and the system will still work.  I'll try that when I get home.

But if there's a way of forcing the Phantoms to use a non-Dialog ("external") wifi network for communication, and still play in stereo, I'd love to know what it is.  I'm convinced that the audio dropouts are due to the poor quality of the communication going over the Dialog's dedicated network.  But I don't think there's a way of bypassing the Dialog network in a stereo config.

Hi
You may have tried this already..
Have you checked the location of the Dialog and phantoms...
Are you able to change the room just for testing? Move the speakers and dialog in another room and test if the dropout still occurs...
Thx

[meeotch]

Dialog is literally five feet from the Phantom with the optical input. The other one is ~20 feet away, line-of-sight. Believe me, there's nothing pathological about my environment. If these devices are meant to operate in an urban setting at all, mine is a relatively unchallenging one.

[Jamington2004]

Hi for me an airport express did steady things up quite a lot when I used to get drop outs connected via wifi

Now I connect via PLC and all seems ok

They explained it to me that the dialog network relies on a very steady uninterrupted network feeding it. If fed from the main router network lots of other traffic is taking up bandwidth so the dialogue network may have issues.

The airport expresss creates a fenced off network with no other traffic on which the dialogue operates

That's all I know And probably it makes no sense to anyone with any real knowledge on the subject

[streamy]

>>   They are not on the same electrical circuit.

Could there be any possibility for you to link the two circuit, e.g. with some HW like proposed here:
https://devialetchat.com/showthread.php?...1#pid70181
The integrated PLC on connected circuits really works without any dropouts, stable for months or even years now in my case.

[meeotch]

@angenet - the Dialog is literally five feet from the Phantom with the optical input. The other one is ~20 feet away, line-of-sight. And mine is the only network physically located in the building. Believe me, there's nothing pathological about my environment. If these devices are meant to operate in an urban setting at all, mine is a relatively unchallenging one.

@streamy - that's an interesting device. But I'd like to keep this thread focused on the topic of how the Phantom / Dialog Wifi functionality works (or doesn't). Specifically, whether Devialet's own people are giving me advice that doesn't apply to my configuration.

@Jamington2004 - Your comment directly addresses the point I'm trying to clarify: "the dialog network relies on a very steady uninterrupted network feeding it" The dedicated networks that the Dialog itself sets up are, in fact, fenced-off networks with no other traffic except for Dialog->Phantom communication. And since I'm using the optical input, not using Spark, and not streaming audio to the Dialog, there is no Devialet-specific traffic on my home network. The two are completely separate. In other words, my assertion is that the Phantoms never connect to any Wifi except the dedicated Dialog-initiated networks.

Adding an Airport, if the above theory is correct, should have no effect, because there will be no Devialet-specific traffic on the Airport's network. It replaces my home network in this equation, it doesn't replace the Dialog-initiated networks. Again, this should be testable by turning off *all* networking gear except the Dialog - the system will continue to function.

Hypothetically, an Airport might make the situation worse, as I'd be using more of the available channels for non-Phantom traffic and "squeezing" the Dialog-initiated network into the remaining space. Anyway, the Airport has arrived from Devialet, so I can test my assertion this weekend.