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Dual mono with REL Subwoofer
@David A@audio_engr. As for what I am looking for - I was happy with my system till I started reading this thread!

I just listen to music - no need / desire for thumping. My speakers are rated low but I have heard that in the real world they never go as low as the manufacturers say. Interestingly, Devialet say they only go to 35 - but with SAM they go to 11...I have been using SAM often around 35%.

I borrowed a couple of inexpensive subs and hooked them up to each speaker and I do like the sound. As I said I have a limited area (maybe 3 feet x 3 feet behind each speaker) to move them - at the moment I have them stacked on one side. Curiously, measuring with REW in the different locations/orientations I tried, they don’t eliminate the nulls that my room has. Since I can’t place them all around the room that may just be the reality.

Based on my experimenting with these inexpensive sub I am thinking maybe just get one better sub. I am intrigued by the REL G1 mkll , but, my goodness it is big for my room (and the weight...). I think the REL Carbon Limited might be the ticket, but you can’t buy them anywhere. 

So, I need to decide - G1, S5, or S3. I have eliminated the T9i .The system sounds good as is -why can’t we leave things alone!! Interestingly I find the sound best with the subs and SAM on(at 35%) -which I know makes no sense.
Nucklehead AMD Server  -   Devialet 1000Pro  -  Magico S3 Speakers
New England
USA
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(29-Jun-2019, 14:10)Dan Wrote: @David A@audio_engr. As for what I am looking for - I was happy with my system till I started reading this thread!

I just listen to music - no need / desire for thumping. My speakers are rated low but I have heard that in the real world they never go as low as the manufacturers say. Interestingly, Devialet say they only go to 35 - but with SAM they go to 11...I have been using SAM often around 35%.

I borrowed a couple of inexpensive subs and hooked them up to each speaker and I do like the sound. As I said I have a limited area (maybe 3 feet x 3 feet behind each speaker) to move them - at the moment I have them stacked on one side. Curiously, measuring with REW in the different locations/orientations I tried, they don’t eliminate the nulls that my room has. Since I can’t place them all around the room that may just be the reality.

Based on my experimenting with these inexpensive sub I am thinking maybe just get one better sub. I am intrigued by the REL G1 mkll , but, my goodness it is big for my room (and the weight...). I think the REL Carbon Limited might be the ticket, but you can’t buy them anywhere. 

So, I need to decide - G1, S5, or S3. I have eliminated the T9i .The system sounds good as is -why can’t we leave things alone!! Interestingly I find the sound best with the subs and SAM on(at 35%) -which I know makes no sense.

Dan,

If you just listen to music and were happy with your system until you started reading this thread, then forget about a sub, forget about this thread, and go back to just listening to music and being happy.

Facts:

1- If you have one or more problem nulls in your room it's going to take multiple subs in different locations to smooth the response. You won't reduce nulls with a single sub and the multiple subs will need to be placed in the appropriate places in the room. There's a lot of stuff on the Harmon site about placement of multiple subs for smoothing room response and it's worth reading if this is what you want to achieve but if I remember correctly they recommend 3 or 4 subs, 2 doesn't achieve that sort of result and they had to be placed in specific ways, just putting them anywhere around the room didn't work. Check their recommendations and if you can't place subs in the locations they recommend then you're unlikely to be able to get the kind of result you want.

2- A null is a low pressure area in the room. They occur in specific locations in the room. You can influence the severity of the null with speaker placement, which determines how much the speaker is going to load the room modes (standing waves) and also with the location of your listening position by placing it outside of an area where a null occurs. I once was listening to a demo of a speaker in a dealer showroom and playing one of my own discs with a prominent low bass note. I was sitting in the chair the dealer had set up for the speakers and I couldn't hear that bass note. I stood up and started walking to the CD player to swap discs and 1 to 2 steps in front of the chair the bass note hit me. A change of 2 feet or so in listening position was all it took to make the difference between being able to hear that note strongly and not hear it at all.  Try moving your listening position backwards and/or forwards a couple of feet, a small step at a time, and see if you can reduce or eliminate the null just with a change of listening position.

3- If you're going to do something, it's worth doing well. If you want to add subs, then make sure you can get really good results from those subs before you add them. That means not only considering the quality of the sub but whether or not you're going to be able to set them up so that they can deliver what they're capable of. There's little sense in adding subs if you're going to then set them up in a way that means they can't deliver what you're buying them for. There's no point to buying a sub which can do what you want it to do if you're going to set it up in your room in a way which guarantees that it won't deliver what it's capable of.
Roon Nucleus+, Devilalet Expert 140 Pro CI, Focal Sopra 2, PS Audio P12, Keces P8 LPS, Uptone Audio EtherREGEN with optical fibre link to my router, Shunyata Alpha NR and Sigma NR power cables, Shunyata Sigma ethernet cables, Shunyata Alpha V2 speaker cables, Grand Prix Audio Monaco rack, RealTRAPS acoustic treatment.

Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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(29-Jun-2019, 14:10)Dan Wrote: @David A@audio_engr. As for what I am looking for - I was happy with my system till I started reading this thread!

I just listen to music - no need / desire for thumping. My speakers are rated low but I have heard that in the real world they never go as low as the manufacturers say. Interestingly, Devialet say they only go to 35 - but with SAM they go to 11...I have been using SAM often around 35%.

I borrowed a couple of inexpensive subs and hooked them up to each speaker and I do like the sound. As I said I have a limited area (maybe 3 feet x 3 feet behind each speaker) to move them - at the moment I have them stacked on one side. Curiously, measuring with REW in the different locations/orientations I tried, they don’t eliminate the nulls that my room has. Since I can’t place them all around the room that may just be the reality.

Based on my experimenting with these inexpensive sub I am thinking maybe just get one better sub. I am intrigued by the REL G1 mkll , but, my goodness it is big for my room (and the weight...). I think the REL Carbon Limited might be the ticket, but you can’t buy them anywhere. 

So, I need to decide - G1, S5, or S3. I have eliminated the T9i .The system sounds good as is -why can’t we leave things alone!! Interestingly I find the sound best with the subs and SAM on(at 35%) -which I know makes no sense.

Try listen to the 212/SE, it used same amp as the No.25, I found it better than the S5 SHO.
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After a six month break, I am back to considering a pair of subs. I've had multiple conversations with the rel representative who suggest (for my speakers and small space) I go with a pair of the new S/510s. I've tried several times to suggest the 212se or the new S/812 and he keeps coming back to the 510 - which, I guess I have to give him credit for not talking me up in the price range. So, my general question for the crowd is - is it a problem to have 'more sub' than my space needs?
Nucklehead AMD Server  -   Devialet 1000Pro  -  Magico S3 Speakers
New England
USA
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(13-Dec-2019, 16:51)Dan Wrote: After a six month break, I am back to considering a pair of subs. I've had multiple conversations with the rel representative who suggest (for my speakers and small space) I go with a pair of the new S/510s. I've tried several times to suggest the 212se or the new S/812 and he keeps coming back to the 510 - which, I guess I have to give him credit for not talking me up in the price range. So, my general question for the crowd is - is it a problem to have 'more sub' than my space needs?


I found REL suggests sub depending on your speaker type, what speaker you told them? If you have a big floor stand speaker they most likely will suggest S812 or 212SE.
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I told them I have Magico S3 speakers - their suggestion was a pair of the S/510. I asked about the SE212 or the S/812 - they fairly strongly recommended the S/510 - hence my questions on this thread.
Nucklehead AMD Server  -   Devialet 1000Pro  -  Magico S3 Speakers
New England
USA
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For music you can definitely have too much sub, the effect should be to extend and enhance the music without overblowing. I have 2 G1 Mk 2s (with KEF Reference 5s) for music which also form part of my home cinema system with an S5 SHO on the centre channel and two T9is on the rears in a room 26 feet by 16 and even the 'little' T9is are capable of rocking the entire room! I don't know how big your room is, but if it is small then two of the new S510s should be more than enough. I have had amazing service from REL, they have been one of the best HiFi companies I have ever dealt with and am pretty certain that they would not leave you with a system you are unhappy with if you went with their recommendation and didn't think it sounded amazing.
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@Laura Thanks for the response. I agree that the REL folks seem responsive and helpful - try as I might to talk him up to a larger (ie more expensive sub) he basically said - don’t do it - go with the S510. I’ve gotten side tracked with room diffusers/absorption treatments for now and will get back to whether to add REL subs in a month or so.

Interestingly, if I use the REL Sub speaker pairing selector on their site for a small room and my Magico S3’s it recommends a REL T/5i - not even a T/9i. I’m guessing some of that comes from the S3s are probably overkill for my 10.5 x 13.5 ft room.
Nucklehead AMD Server  -   Devialet 1000Pro  -  Magico S3 Speakers
New England
USA
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@Dan  He is likely right for your room size. I got carried away and wanted No25s originally but was talked out of it by the REL guys and in hindsight they were probably right then too, but it never stops us wanting it, that is the problem with HiFi addiction  Smile 

With regards to room treatment, how's that going? I had a consultation and recommendations from my local HiFi shop but not acted upon them yet. That's probably the next project. 
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@Laura I agree on the addiction issue....

On room treatments, I've had corner bass traps and first reflection absorption panels that I made a while. I have had a large wood cut of a boat (approx 3' x 6') centered on my front wall. Unfortunately it is covered in glass. I am now going to make a number of diffusion panels and maybe a bass trap soffit panel or two - 'tis my January project.
Nucklehead AMD Server  -   Devialet 1000Pro  -  Magico S3 Speakers
New England
USA
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