Ethernet Cables make a difference

[Johnnydev]

The Phantom wasn’t designed that way.


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Pfffff :-(

[yabaVR]

The Phantom wasn’t designed that way.


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...sorry me being so unprecise 

gui

[Confused]

Cables can make a difference, but it does depend on where they are and what they are used for. Consider an Ethernet cable. If this is running directly from the source to the DAC, then there is a possibility that noise, EMI/RFI, could make it to the DAC. Noise in the DAC could affect the clock, this could influence sound.

But what if you are simply copying a file from one place to another? If you are transferring a file from one hard disc on your computer to a back up drive, do you need a super expensive cable here? If you download a high quality music file from someone like Linn Studio Masters, does it matter if Linn use CAT 5 or 6 in their set-up? What about the miles of Ethernet cable between Linn's server and your home computer? In these cases jitter does not matter, as jitter cannot be stored in memory on a hard drive. Noise cannot be stored either.

So ask a couple of questions. Can EMI/RFI be stored in memory? Can jitter be stored in memory? Then look at where the files are being transferred and used, what is the topography of the system. Ask another question, if you transfer a file from one hard disc to another, then back again, will these files be different? The answer here is they will be identical unless there is a fault in the system. In a correctly functioning system, the files could be copied back and forth thousands of of times and not change. This is not speculation, it is proven fact. If I were to copy two versions of a file onto a hard disc, one version created using a cheap cat 5 cable and one version using a £500 cable, could you tell which was which by listening to them? As to the use of ethernet cables with the Phantom, I am not familiar with the protocols used, is the file transferred to the Dialog in it's entirety? Is it buffered? The answers to these questions should indicate quite clearly how much influence the Ethernet cable can, or cannot, have.

One problem with audio is that currently there are a number of aspects that appear not to be fully understood. These are areas where the objective theory does not seem to agree with what is heard and observed. OK, this could be because subjective listening is notoriously unreliable, but it could be because of mechanisms not yet fully understood. An example of this is the influence of noise on audio clocks and the benefit of using high-quality clocks in the feed to USB DACs. Here there is a lot of evidence that the mechanisms involved are indeed not fully understood. Also, there are people investigating this, Sonore / UptoneAudio designer John Swenson is currently building new circuit boards for custom made test equipment. His aim is to measure the influence of upstream clocks in USB systems and he has found that he needs to build his own test equipment to measure it, nothing currently exists that will do the job. This is part of human progress, but the technology for transferring a file from one place to another is tried, tested and established. Although if there are any grammaticle erors or speling mistakes in this post, it was of course the fault of the CAT 5 cable I am using, not me deliberately mistyping. Yes, there is a lot in audio that is not fully understood, but we should not confuse this with what is tried, tested and proven beyond reasonable doubt.

Meanwhile, someone on another forum reckons I should try the Lush USB cable, he states this works well with the SOtM kit and should suit my system. I am tempted. Any thoughts?

[Jean-Marie]

IanG-UK has put it very nicely in the above post. I do think that we should all be very critical when spending our money in this hobby. Too much of snake oil out there. As for the Ethernet cables I believe the difference we hear has to do with jitter reduction due to EMI/RFI rejection. Here is a good article that hopefully explains the point more clearly:

https://darko.audio/2014/12/global-feedb...ifference/

If it is jitter reduction, I find the consequences  rather scary since when streaming, what is in our home is the edge of a rather long chain of interconnects, routers, switches and transmission equipment. 

The jitter contribution of this last segment is orders of magnitude lower than the rest of the chain.
Also, given how internet routing works, there is a high inconstancy on the routes packets are taking from day to day, even hour to hour. 

Therefore if the reduction of jitter between fiber/cable/DSL box and the dialog thanks to a Ethernet cable is having an audible effect, I cannot see how one could have any consistency in streaming. 

Note that I’m absolutely not doubting the good faith of people and the most important thing is to enjoy the music, and whatever makes it more enjoyable is fair catch. I’m just trying to understand the mechanisms at stake, whatever they are. 

Jean-Marie

[kmjy]

It’s not? It’s not designed to be picky with cables and specific configurations. It’s designed to act and perform the same way no matter what. If your cable isn’t up to standard it won’t perform because it can’t reach the level needed. If your cable is too good it will already be performing at it’s maximum design limits and will not give you any additional performance. It doesn’t change the way it streams based on cables or network conditions. If the conditions aren’t up to standard your audio will skip, not compress or lower in quality to keep up. It just doesn’t do that and that’s the way Devialet designed it. It sends digital content at a locked-in and specific quality no matter what. This is the same as when people say different power cables give different performance levels. Don’t you think what’s supplied in the box would be optimal for the thing it’s made for? The amplifiers are set to act a certain way regardless of cable and the electricity entering Phantom is filtered before hitting the amplifiers. So it’ll always sound the same. Cleaner electricity will make it easier on the filtering process but it won’t effect the final result. If you lack the required electrical requirements then the unit won’t work. It either functions as intended or it doesn’t function.


The Phantom takes a copy of the file requested and caches it into it’s RAM while playing. Depending on your connection speed it could take the whole song in 5 seconds or it could take the whole song in 10 minutes (if that last one is the cause you’ll get skipping, no compression). Every time you play a song on Phantom (apart from through AirPlay or Bluetooth) the entire file is copied to Phantom while playing and accessed directly from RAM within Phantom. It isn’t streamed in the sense that it’s being played live. It is just transferred to Phantom and played all within Phantom. This is how it’s always done it.


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[Jean-Marie]

It’s not? It’s not designed to be picky with cables and specific configurations. It’s designed to act and perform the same way no matter what. If your cable isn’t up to standard it won’t perform because it can’t reach the level needed. If your cable is too good it will already be performing at it’s maximum design limits and will not give you any additional performance. It doesn’t change the way it streams based on cables or network conditions. If the conditions aren’t up to standard your audio will skip, not compress or lower in quality to keep up. It just doesn’t do that and that’s the way Devialet designed it. It sends digital content at a locked-in and specific quality no matter what. This is the same as when people say different power cables give different performance levels. Don’t you think what’s supplied in the box would be optimal for the thing it’s made for? The amplifiers are set to act a certain way regardless of cable and the electricity entering Phantom is filtered before hitting the amplifiers. So it’ll always sound the same. Cleaner electricity will make it easier on the filtering process but it won’t effect the final result. If you lack the required electrical requirements then the unit won’t work. It either functions as intended or it doesn’t function.


The Phantom takes a copy of the file requested and caches it into it’s RAM while playing. Depending on your connection speed it could take the whole song in 5 seconds or it could take the whole song in 10 minutes (if that last one is the cause you’ll get skipping, no compression). Every time you play a song on Phantom (apart from through AirPlay or Bluetooth) the entire file is copied to Phantom while playing and accessed directly from RAM within Phantom. It isn’t streamed in the sense that it’s being played live. It is just transferred to Phantom and played all within Phantom. This is how it’s always done it.


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With all due respect, although what you are describing is certainly the way it works when you are listening to a local file using Spark, I highly doubt that this is the way it works then you are listening to a streaming service like Tidal, which was the case there. 
When listening to an internet streaming service, I doubt that the phantoms do anything else than buffering a few seconds of the stream to cope with packets arrival time variation, and then submit it as a stream to the DAC.

Jean-Marie

[ogs]

...believers in magic cables think doesn't work properly and therefore that this thread is impossible!

I've been waiting for this argument! Implies that one 'magic' cable is bit-perfect and another isn't. The fact is that they are all bit-perfect, but still sounds different... and here we are even discussing ethernet which is packet-based. Why is there a difference? I do not know and I prefer to wait until it can be explained some time in the future. I really would like to see a proper explanation. One thing I am certain of is that audio is way more complex than words on a web page. In the mean time I'll just listen and pick what I like best.

The Phantom wasn’t designed that way.

Every audio designer on the planet would say this about his device. So you think Devialet is the only company that can program a "perfect" product? Based on the "AIR flop" I do not think so...

[kmjy]

It works the same way regardless. It’s downloading the file, temporarily storing it in RAM and decoding it from there.

It’s an intention of design within Devialet to do this to ensure that you always receive the absolute top sound quality. It does cause for more cut outs if the network isn’t up to scratch in offering up that full sized file but it ensures the same quality each and every time.

That is why you can only stream Tidal natively when you have a Dialogue attached with the system. The bigger and higher quality files require a stop in with Dialogue for the initial processing. Dialogue offers more processing capabilities for those files due to the way they’re encoded and transmitted through the Internet. Once they’re processed on Dialogue they’re either split into seperate files for each Phantom in the system or the entirety is sent to your single Phantom and cached into the RAM for final decoding and playback. The whole process stays digital and works like a file transfer. Download. Process. Download. Process. Playback. Only 30% of the file needs to be transferred for playback to begin. It’s processed in real time with Dialogue accounting for the delay between it receiving the file and processing it then sending it onwards to Phantom. Mostly it sends 10% more than required by Phantom at any given time to make up for any delay or network slowdown. In extreme cases though it’s not enough and you’ll get a pause or skip until either downloading f or processing is completed and the file is passed onwards to Phantom.

Also why some users have troubles with dropouts and skipping when using a Dialogue sometimes because the additional data passing through the components requires a little more bandwidth than if it were just going directly to a Phantom.

And I’m not saying it’s a ‘perfect’ product. I’m saying it wasn’t designed to ‘stream’ the data. It was designed to ‘download’ the digital file and do on device decoding, processing and all other corrections. The final result that lands on device is always the same as its a file, not a stream of audio. No jitter or other inconsistencies. It comes as a complete copy of the original file or it doesn’t come at all.


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[ogs]

But it is the data the Phantom/Dialog downloads that is the basis of the differences we hear, not necessarily the way this is handled inside the unit. No?

[kmjy]

But it’s still a digital file that’s being downloaded? The file is always pulled at the same quality because that is specifically requested by the system. The cables won’t effect that. It won’t pull a higher quality or lower quality file based on cables. It’s the same as when you download a file on your PC, it doesn’t matter what your connection is like. You will always get the same file no matter what cables or connection you’re using. The only factor that would differ is the speed that you receive the file but that won’t effect the bits of data you’re receiving. It still receives the total and full bit of file, just at a slower or faster rate depending on connection speed. Just because you use a worse or better cable or connection doesn’t mean you’ll get less or a worse copy of that final file. You’ll still get the same thing no matter what. Unless it’s being streamed over like an analogue signal then you’ll definitely get differences and jitter and all kinds of interference and more. But Phantom doesn’t handle the audio in that way so it’s not possible to experience those things. Better or worse.


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