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Goodbye to Devialet - after upgrade program
Completely agree with octaviars, Roon would be just about the only thing for me to regret not upgrading, but I just don't see Devialet bowing to superior software, they will want everybody to use Spark, which starts out as archaic, based on UPnP protocols.

@Confused you are right also, things are improved dramatically by finding alternate routes to music, I use a microRendu and Roon. The point is though that Devialet should have been so ashamed of what they promised and failed to deliver, that the upgrade program should have respected that. Instead, they are pretty much saying, you have to upgrade at exorbitant cost, or be left behind. Well geee, thanks Devialet.

I bought Devialet to get off the upgrade merry-go-round.
Devialet 220 Pro, TQ Black Mains & Ultra Black Speaker Cables, Naim Ovators S600, Sonore microRendu (Roon & HQP) with Uptone JS-2
TRNC (North Cyprus)
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(17-Oct-2016, 18:55)AllenB Wrote: Completely agree with octaviars, Roon would be just about the only thing for me to regret not upgrading, but I just don't see Devialet bowing to superior software, they will want everybody to use Spark, which starts out as archaic, based on UPnP protocols.

@Confused you are right also, things are improved dramatically by finding alternate routes to music, I use a microRendu and Roon. The point is though that Devialet should have been so ashamed of what they promised and failed to deliver, that the upgrade program should have respected that. Instead, they are pretty much saying, you have to upgrade at exorbitant cost, or be left behind. Well geee, thanks Devialet.

I bought Devialet to get off the upgrade merry-go-round.
 
In my two systems I consider Spark/Dialog to be a much bigger problem than AIR3. I used AIR3 since it came out and got white noise twice and I know what caused it (if I start my computer and starts playback in Roon before I have turned on my amp I get white noise so I dont do this) so not a problem for me.
Spark on the other hand dont work well at all and compared to Roon it is way behind I have used upnp apps that works better. If I knew it was this bad I could have ditched the Dialog and run my Chromecast directly to my Phantom via toslink and either Tidal directly or through Bubble upnp app and saved the money. 
Perhaps Devialet will fix this but if this is what they want us to use with the new streamerboard I would not recommend anyone to do that.
Speakers:TAD CE-1. Amplifier: TAD M2500mk2. Digital: TAD DA1000-TX, Innuos Statement Next-gen, Innuos PhoenixNET.

Miscellaneous: Qobuz Studio, Ansuz Mainz 8 D2, Ansuz Darkz DTC, Tubulus Argentus ethernet cable, Tubulus Concentus USB cable, Tubulus Argentus V2 XLR cable, Tubulus Argentus V3 + V3 bass, iFi Nova powercables. 

Second system
Qobuz Studio -> Devialet Silver Phantom, Devialet Tree









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I used to seriously think Devialet wouldn't add Roon. But each time I look at the partners list I just think 'how could they not do it?'. Offering Spark as the only solution, when many other high end brands are RoonReady (or plan to be) just seems like lunacy. Which of course often turns out to be what Devialet does.

But this time I'm taking a gamble. They will add Roon I'm sure, and I'll be b*****ed if I'm going to hold out until next year only to find out that they have, and that the streamer card then cost extra money, and the upgrade window has closed and all the bargains gone. Then I'd really be upset.

The way I see it, if they add Roon I'll have a free streamerboard and be ecstatic that I finally have the AIR-like system I bought into, but thankfully without AIR. If they don't I can sell it at a higher price than I'd get for my 200. Or if I don't like the upgrade anyway, I can again sell with less loss, and if I do I get more enjoyment in the meantime.

That's about as logical and unemotional as I could be about it.

>>> 1st Place Award: Devialet, last decades most disappointing technology purchase.  <<<

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(17-Oct-2016, 17:37)Womaz Wrote:
(17-Oct-2016, 15:29)Confused Wrote: I have some thoughts.  Firstly, I understand the sentiments posted by many in this thread.  If you feel let down by Devialet, with issues such as AIR, poor communication or whatever, then the thought of dishing out more cash for Devialet's benefit is not a good thought.  I understand all of this and have no argument here.  (and I have thought much of it myself!)
Having said that, there have been a few comments made that I am not so sure about.  One is that there will be a lack of future support for the existing Expert models.  OK, the streamer board will be Pro only, and for those that bought into the single box idea with AIR delivering the goods this is annoying.  You could of course buy a microRendu or mR +Mutec for the price of the streamer board, but this does not mitigate the annoyance with AIR.  However, for any other firmware updates that provide new features, I think these will be available for the non-Pro models.  Looking back, we have seen the D-Premier supported, but new features that that work only on the Expert, and not the D-Premier.  Think SAM, RAM or whatever.  Why is this?  The Expert has the ‘EVO platform’, the D-Premier does not.  It is the EVO platform that allows ‘constant improvement via free, regular updates, for ever improved features and performance.’  The point here being is that the EVO platform exists on the Expert range and continues on the Pro, it is logical therefore to conclude that new features offered for the Pro will also work on the Expert, streamer board excepted.
Then we have many posts along the lines of the upgrade scheme trashing second hand values.  OK, when a new model emerges it is only to be expected that the previous model is devalued to a degree, this is normal.  But an upgrade scheme will serve to take second hand models off the market.  So someone looking to upgrade, either up the range or to an alternative product, would look to sell his existing amp, hence putting second hand product on the market.  However, anyone who upgrades, is effectively keeping his amp and removing potential second hand stock for a number of years.  The rules of supply and demand apply.  Also, some have mentioned the Pro models being more expensive, this puzzles me a bit, as the Expert and Pro prices at launch are more or less identical in the UK, but if true, higher new prices will bolster second hand prices.  I did have a quick look around, and did not find much evidence of a massive drop in second-hand values, indeed, looking at the for sale section on this forum, it has been slim picking recently.   I might be wrong, and if there is evidence of this I will stand corrected.   This issue might be different in different markets / countries of course.
There is a flip side to this, if you are a D200 owner and values have plummeted, this is bad, but if you want to move to a D400, your companion is now a bargain.  It is an ill wind that blows no good…..
I do understand that the upgrade scheme does look very different from the perspective of different models.  The D800 to 1000 Pro upgrade looks like an absolute bargain I think, but in comparison, the D200 to 220 Pro, although arguably still worthwhile, for sure does not have the compelling value of the 800 to 1000 Pro.   I understand how incredibly annoying AIR, Devialet’s communication and other issues have been, if you have the D200, which appears to offer the lowest value upgrade this is annoying too.  I get this.  So it’s a mixed bag, but perhaps not quite as bad as might be indicated in some posts in this thread.  But if you have lost faith in the Devialet brand and want to move on, I understand and respect that.

Great post. I don't have a very high opinion of Devialet as they treat their customers with total contempt if you ask me. However and it is a big however my D200 is an amazing piece of kit. I have no desire to upgrade as I stretched myself to the limit with the 200 and my new speakers, and to be honest I am more than happy with the set up. How Devialet get away with the abomination that is AIR is down to us the customers not having the time or inclination to challenge them.........trust me I have thought about it. But again it's hard to be really unhappy when you think you have the finest set up you have ever had. Not sure I would ever give them another penny.

As for the upgrade I could go to D400 or D220 Pro and would not have a clue which would give the biggest improvement

D200 has been the greatest thing that happened to my ears so far.
However, I would be quite disappointed if the EVo would become obsolete :  I bought a Devialet on the promise that it would keep "improving" with sw updates on a regular basis.
I'm afraid the OS is going to be a prerequisite for further updates.
The lack of information on this matter is wether an incentive or a deterrent for upgrading depending on the interpretation. I am not into streaming because it gives me the impression that I lose the control of what I really want to listen to (it's like buying a book vs borrowing it). Old school... So if the improvement with the new board mostly focuses on that kind of versatility, I surely would regret the investment. On the other hand the quest of an audo-nirvana is something everybody share on this forum : so what if it was really worth the money ? For now I take the information on Devialet website with a pinch of salt and I am eager to read further reports here. I went to my dealer last week to pick a cable and asked him what he could tell about the D220 pro (which was in demo) vs D200. He was not too keen on answering telling me he needed more time. 
I remember a post by Guillaume saying that the decision between buying a companion and upgrading was not obvious. My personal conclusion is that time is needed indeed considering the cost of the upgrade.
Bruno

Auralic Aries g2.1 / Chord Qutest / CLEARAUDIO Blackmotion - cartridge Clearaudio Virtuoso V2 mm/  /Gryphon Diablo 300 / Blue jeans cable / Apertura Edena Evolution
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Personally I don't think there is any big mystery as to what Devialet OS and EVO might deliver. Devialet OS already exists, it is part of the Phantom eco system and used for internet radio, streaming services and so on. The EVO platform is what SAM, RAM and other DSP type Expert features utilise. Is there anything to suggest that Devialet OS will be any different on the Pro? Plus, if any new DSP type features emerge, such a room correction (a big if, I know), then this would sensibly run using EVO, not 'Devialet OS'. I might be wrong, predicting what Devialet have in mind is a challenge, but this seems logical to me.
1000 Pro - KEF Blade - iFi Zen Stream - Mutec REF10 - MC3+USB - Pro-Ject Signature 12
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(17-Oct-2016, 20:33)Confused Wrote: ... Plus, if any new DSP type features emerge, such a room correction (a big if, I know), then this would sensibly run using EVO, not 'Devialet OS'.  I might be wrong, predicting what Devialet have in mind is a challenge, but this seems logical to me.

We're all guessing I know, but that's where I think I disagree. My hunch is the current hardware has the guts to do room correction DSP now (I'm sure I read they still have a whole DSP chip idle), but to get something like that working requires more than just the processing - it needs an interface for configuration and adjustment, otherwise it would be completely impractical to use (the torture of trying to do 'poor mans room correction' just fine tuning the tone controls via configurator and SD card updates being a prime example of a potentially powerful feature becoming bonkersly painful in the hands of Devialets current system).

My hunch is 'on the fly' tone settings will become possible, but you'll need acess to an OS enabled platform to do it. Same for room correction, you'll need the OS to manage your presets.  Same for any other features other brands are adding right now, they'll need an iOS app, or laptop interface to control. Of course the board won't actually be delivering the sound, but without it you'd need another lifetime (and shares in Sandisk) just to get the right settings on your SD card.

I could be completely wrong of course, but i sense any cool new features you'd really want will require the OS too.

>>> 1st Place Award: Devialet, last decades most disappointing technology purchase.  <<<

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(17-Oct-2016, 22:10)Hifi_swlon Wrote:
(17-Oct-2016, 20:33)Confused Wrote: ... Plus, if any new DSP type features emerge, such a room correction (a big if, I know), then this would sensibly run using EVO, not 'Devialet OS'.  I might be wrong, predicting what Devialet have in mind is a challenge, but this seems logical to me.

We're all guessing I know, but that's where I think I disagree. My hunch is the current hardware has the guts to do room correction DSP now (I'm sure I read they still have a whole DSP chip idle), but to get something like that working requires more than just the processing - it needs an interface for configuration and adjustment, otherwise it would be completely impractical to use (the torture of trying to do 'poor mans room correction' just fine tuning the tone controls via configurator and SD card updates being a prime example of a potentially powerful feature becoming bonkersly painful in the hands of Devialets current system).

My hunch is 'on the fly' tone settings will become possible, but you'll need acess to an OS enabled platform to do it. Same for room correction, you'll need the OS to manage your presets.  Same for any other features other brands are adding right now, they'll need an iOS app, or laptop interface to control. Of course the board won't actually be delivering the sound, but without it you'd need another lifetime (and shares in Sandisk) just to get the right settings on your SD card.

I could be completely wrong of course, but i sense any cool new features you'd really want will require the OS too.

And let's not forget what Devialet told us... OS is the biggest upgrade coming to the Od'A. 

Nuff said. Sleepy

Guillaune
Industry disclosure: UK distributor for Shunyata Research

220 PRO, totaldac d1 server with additional external power supply, totaldac d1-seven, Echole PSU for Totaldac, Wilson Audio Sasha 2, Shunyata Research cables, Shunyata Hydra Alpha A10 + DPC-6 v3, Various Entreq ground boxes and cables, Entreq Athena level 3 rack, 2 X SOtM sNH-10G with sCLK-EX + 10MHz Master Clock input + sPS-500 PSU, i5 sonicTransporter w/ 1TB SSD

UK
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My take... Devialet is a company that is all about periodic improvement of product and sound quality. It's a sign of a vibrant, successful company and we should be excited about that. While marketing and communication may not be their strength (ok, clearly not ;-), it is equally clear that they understand how to make an awesome integrated amp and that they are committed to improving it. The fact that their new Pro series provides a means to upgrade for existing customers is actually pretty amazing (despite the fact that it feels pricey). Would we rather there wasn't an upgrade path? Don't think so.

So the choice we have is no different than the choice we've always had... to spend for something we believe is better, or to live with what we've got.

In truth, the existing Experts are exceptional products. Jump off the merry-go-round and you can be a very happy camper for a long time. As long as you stop reading DevialetChat, stop reading about what new and awesome technologies are available. stop thinking there's something better out there. Because there will always be something better, and it will cost a significant chunk of change.... and we will want it.
Devialet 440 Pro (two 220s)- Oracle CD transport - Kuzma Stabi S/Stogi S turntable - Von Schweikert VR-35 speakers - JPS SC3 SCs - PI Audio power conditioning -
Triode Wire Labs ICs and PCs - Roon on NUC 8i7beh running ROCK
Durham, NC USA
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(25-Jul-2016, 22:35)archer75 Wrote: I wonder if or how many of us are considering to give up continuing with Devialet Expert line going forward. My frustration is that I invested my LE200 as it is one box solution which I am happy with but a little longer than my purchase why I should pay 50% of my current device for an upgrade? This will make my total investment in the range of eur 10k which I would have much more options, okay not as a single unit perhaps. I do know if they announced the retail price of pro series though.
My second frustration is that 120 owners will pay the same upgrade cost. This is insane. Regardless of the cost to Devialet is same, they should hv created a difference at upgrade cost, even it is 500 euros.

My dilemma right now is perhaps it is better to sell my LE200 and top up eur 3500 to go for a different path/device.

Anyone else considering the same?



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Did Devialet 'get lucky' here. Correct me if I am wrong, but did they not happen upon the advances representing the Pro upgrade, whilst putting together the Od'A, to the point where things over-lapped, and with new Od'A owners finding out that their machines were not going to be the pinnacle of Devialet ownership.

Fair enough, they get their upgrades free, would not expect anything less, but not until next year. That's a bit rum. They should be Premiere Class, first in line and treated like royalty. But no ....

What Devialet have managed to achieve is a solution (we think, because no-one knows anything yet about the streaming board) to all the failed promises of the original Expert range, and yet charge us a whopping upgrade cost. Something does not sit right with me here, and I have to get over this before I consider doing the upgrade. Let's see, they swap a few things around and re-design the motherboard, change the thermal pads and bingo, everything is improved. Wrap that up in a must have 'Pro' package and then charge an exorbitant cost, but wait, we still do not have a streaming function that will give us Spark, or hopefully, more. Only another promise, which Devialet have not been great on delivering as far as Expert is concerned.

AIR is still on beta. Beta says to me, let's hope and pray it works this time. Maybe they have got lucky again with version 3. In the meantime, without reliable AIR or Dialogue, we all had to find alternative sources, when those two technologies formed a major part of buying the Expert in the first place. That cost each and every one of us money. Having done this, Devialet are now effectively asking us to stick or twist. I wonder how many people have a Dialogue 'brick' sitting never used in their cupboards!

Roon has taught me to forget about UPnP, it's archaic, it was a major reason why I left Naim streaming & serving, I knew what i wanted and Roon delivered. It is my de-facto standard now. Devialet are stuck on Spark, which from what I have seen, does not spark me in the least. The Dialogue was interesting though, here you have something modestly priced, but a function that could easily be upgraded or indeed replaced as streaming technologies develop. It had the potential to be Devialet's 'Sonos Connect' with multiple streaming possibilities and even the addition of alternative front end players (e.g. Roon). Ok, effectively it would be a mini-computer, but that is the sort of computing power required nowadays if you want to use all the bells 'n' whistles, stick a NUC in a Dialogue box and hey presto. Importantly, this computing power is removed from the inside of the Expert. This new streaming board, worries me slightly, it has to up the computing power, but not so far as to become a 'noisy' mess within the Expert box. Which says to me, you will get UPnP/DLNA with attendant Spark, and not much else, well not in this version of the streaming board. Devialet deliver their promise but not much scope to expand. Wait for the annual streaming board upgrades, done at the dealers at £1.5k a pop. Hmmmm ...... been there, done that, and at much cheaper cost than Devialet are likely to charge.

The price of these upgrades have killed the second hand market for Experts. People will have to expect bottom dollar, not top dollar, the buyer will say 'ohh but I have to allow the cost of upgrading to Pro'. Dealers have little scope to trade-in older Experts against new Pro's, most will say the margins are too small, so you will be offered even lesser bottom dollar, or given the advice to try and sell privately. Devialet must know this after having consulted with their dealers (maybe that is why the cull of dealers occurred?), hence the persuasive onus on you really really should upgrade, where all the monies go to Devialet and no-one else, particularly the dealers, the life-blood of our hobby.

So I remain unconvinced about upgrading, of course it is difficult to read about the advances in SQ being reported, and that has it's own value in terms of upgrade costs. I like what they have achieved with the technologies, but I am wholly sceptical of Devialet OS, I think this could be a great white elephant. Ready to accept new advances maybe, but don't get sucked in by the hyperbola until something concrete is tabled by them. Again, the gun is held to your head, if you don't upgrade now, but later when these streaming boards are actually real, then you will be charged even more for it. That is pure marketing of an unsavoury kind in my book.
Devialet 220 Pro, TQ Black Mains & Ultra Black Speaker Cables, Naim Ovators S600, Sonore microRendu (Roon & HQP) with Uptone JS-2
TRNC (North Cyprus)
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