Goodbye to Devialet - after upgrade program

[Hifi_swlon]

I ust do not see where the VFM is here with the upgrade program (except if you are a 120 owner). What worries me though is that Devialet will just cease support on the superseded Expert range. We might get basic firmware upgrades for operational purposes, but that's about it AFAICT. So for me, buying my 200 with the promise of Spark compatibility to come (via Dialogue) I feel somewhat cheated by Devialet.

I have no inclination to give them anymore of my money, and I can sit, hopefully, happy with the fact that my 200 sounds just as good as it did yesterday. I have made other contingencies for not having Spark/Dialogue or a flaky up-to-recently AIR capability. But that cost me (a lot), and there seems no 'guilty recompense' from Devialet in their upgrade pricing. It would have gone a long way if they had shown some acknowledgement to the non-deliverance of features that were high profile in the marketing of the Expert range originally, and made these upgrades much more affordable.

The new streaming board, for example, should be free (or basic part cost) to everybody, existing Experts as well as Pro's without the implication that it will only fit the new Pro's. If that is the case, how do existing streaming boards fit the new Pro innards and be replaced next year. I read that as the connections will be the same, this year / next year regardless.

I agree, and especially about the last part. Imagine the goodwill shown to customers having logged AIR complaints/faults by giving them a new streamer board as an apology.
I had the same thoughts about the board connections/dimensions, as it has to fit the same space and connections as the current one. But I suppose it might be bigger or have extra connections on the new motherboard, or have greater power supply or whatever. But if they wanted to they could make it backwards compatible I'm sure - I assume it outputs i2s to the Devialet?

Anyway the 200 upgrade isn't value for money in my mind, and I didn't want to give any money to Devialet unless it was working in my favour, so that's not what I opted for....

[octaviars]

I ust do not see where the VFM is here with the upgrade program (except if you are a 120 owner). What worries me though is that Devialet will just cease support on the superseded Expert range. We might get basic firmware upgrades for operational purposes, but that's about it AFAICT. So for me, buying my 200 with the promise of Spark compatibility to come (via Dialogue) I feel somewhat cheated by Devialet.

I have no inclination to give them anymore of my money, and I can sit, hopefully, happy with the fact that my 200 sounds just as good as it did yesterday. I have made other contingencies for not having Spark/Dialogue or a flaky up-to-recently AIR capability. But that cost me (a lot), and there seems no 'guilty recompense' from Devialet in their upgrade pricing. It would have gone a long way if they had shown some acknowledgement to the non-deliverance of features that were high profile in the marketing of the Expert range originally, and made these upgrades much more affordable.

The new streaming board, for example, should be free (or basic part cost) to everybody, existing Experts as well as Pro's without the implication that it will only fit the new Pro's. If that is the case, how do existing streaming boards fit the new Pro innards and be replaced next year. I read that as the connections will be the same, this year / next year regardless.

As a owner of Expert and Phantom and user of Spark I really can only say if Devialet only give the possibility to use Spark/Dialog with the streamerboard then it is not worth much to me.....

Spark have so many problems that I dont use it right now. In Tidal it dont remember Hifi settings but revert to 320kbps. Sometimes in a playlist when you skip a song it takes so long time for it to change song that you hit skip again and then it gets stuck and when it gets back to life it losses the whole list. 

If I run Tidal through it's own app on my Chromecast or Bubble upnp through Chromecast with Tidal everything is ok so clearly it is a problem with Spark/Dialog. 

Just get Roon and stop messing around with Spark.

I use Roon and AIR3 with my D400 and that works without any problems and have done so since AIR3 came along. I have used Spark for a week and not one day without a problem 

[Confused]

I have some thoughts. Firstly, I understand the sentiments posted by many in this thread. If you feel let down by Devialet, with issues such as AIR, poor communication or whatever, then the thought of dishing out more cash for Devialet's benefit is not a good thought. I understand all of this and have no argument here. (and I have thought much of it myself!)
Having said that, there have been a few comments made that I am not so sure about. One is that there will be a lack of future support for the existing Expert models. OK, the streamer board will be Pro only, and for those that bought into the single box idea with AIR delivering the goods this is annoying. You could of course buy a microRendu or mR +Mutec for the price of the streamer board, but this does not mitigate the annoyance with AIR. However, for any other firmware updates that provide new features, I think these will be available for the non-Pro models. Looking back, we have seen the D-Premier supported, but new features that that work only on the Expert, and not the D-Premier. Think SAM, RAM or whatever. Why is this? The Expert has the ‘EVO platform’, the D-Premier does not. It is the EVO platform that allows ‘constant improvement via free, regular updates, for ever improved features and performance.’ The point here being is that the EVO platform exists on the Expert range and continues on the Pro, it is logical therefore to conclude that new features offered for the Pro will also work on the Expert, streamer board excepted.
Then we have many posts along the lines of the upgrade scheme trashing second hand values. OK, when a new model emerges it is only to be expected that the previous model is devalued to a degree, this is normal. But an upgrade scheme will serve to take second hand models off the market. So someone looking to upgrade, either up the range or to an alternative product, would look to sell his existing amp, hence putting second hand product on the market. However, anyone who upgrades, is effectively keeping his amp and removing potential second hand stock for a number of years. The rules of supply and demand apply. Also, some have mentioned the Pro models being more expensive, this puzzles me a bit, as the Expert and Pro prices at launch are more or less identical in the UK, but if true, higher new prices will bolster second hand prices. I did have a quick look around, and did not find much evidence of a massive drop in second-hand values, indeed, looking at the for sale section on this forum, it has been slim picking recently. I might be wrong, and if there is evidence of this I will stand corrected. This issue might be different in different markets / countries of course.
There is a flip side to this, if you are a D200 owner and values have plummeted, this is bad, but if you want to move to a D400, your companion is now a bargain. It is an ill wind that blows no good…..
I do understand that the upgrade scheme does look very different from the perspective of different models. The D800 to 1000 Pro upgrade looks like an absolute bargain I think, but in comparison, the D200 to 220 Pro, although arguably still worthwhile, for sure does not have the compelling value of the 800 to 1000 Pro. I understand how incredibly annoying AIR, Devialet’s communication and other issues have been, if you have the D200, which appears to offer the lowest value upgrade this is annoying too. I get this. So it’s a mixed bag, but perhaps not quite as bad as might be indicated in some posts in this thread. But if you have lost faith in the Devialet brand and want to move on, I understand and respect that.

[Hifi_swlon]

The Expert has the ‘EVO platform’, the D-Premier does not.  It is the EVO platform that allows ‘constant improvement via free, regular updates, for ever improved features and performance.’  The point here being is that the EVO platform exists on the Expert range and continues on the Pro, it is logical therefore to conclude that new features offered for the Pro will also work on the Expert, streamer board excepted.

Great post from Confused as usual. (Sorry, no bonus points, you've got far too many already )

I wonder to what extent EVO will be the basis of future developments, after they add the 'Devialet OS'? I got the impression it was going to run on the streamer board, but perhaps the term 'streamer board' is just convenient, and could really become the central processing hub on the Pro range. To my mind, adding 'an OS' could potentially signify a change in direction of features being added there rather than through EVO. But I don't understand D hardware enough - maybe the DSP stuff always comes under the EVO banner, and connections to the outside world come under the 'OS' banner?

Right now my hunch is this pro range may be a bigger design change than previously, and so supporting the old line with new features will become more difficult. Also there's the question of which platform the firmware gets optimised for - will each range get equal attention or is there a chance the Pro's will take priority? I.e. Make it sound great on the Pros and then use the same code/algorithms on the older generation, which may or may not sound as good.

[Womaz]

I have some thoughts.  Firstly, I understand the sentiments posted by many in this thread.  If you feel let down by Devialet, with issues such as AIR, poor communication or whatever, then the thought of dishing out more cash for Devialet's benefit is not a good thought.  I understand all of this and have no argument here.  (and I have thought much of it myself!)
Having said that, there have been a few comments made that I am not so sure about.  One is that there will be a lack of future support for the existing Expert models.  OK, the streamer board will be Pro only, and for those that bought into the single box idea with AIR delivering the goods this is annoying.  You could of course buy a microRendu or mR +Mutec for the price of the streamer board, but this does not mitigate the annoyance with AIR.  However, for any other firmware updates that provide new features, I think these will be available for the non-Pro models.  Looking back, we have seen the D-Premier supported, but new features that that work only on the Expert, and not the D-Premier.  Think SAM, RAM or whatever.  Why is this?  The Expert has the ‘EVO platform’, the D-Premier does not.  It is the EVO platform that allows ‘constant improvement via free, regular updates, for ever improved features and performance.’  The point here being is that the EVO platform exists on the Expert range and continues on the Pro, it is logical therefore to conclude that new features offered for the Pro will also work on the Expert, streamer board excepted.
Then we have many posts along the lines of the upgrade scheme trashing second hand values.  OK, when a new model emerges it is only to be expected that the previous model is devalued to a degree, this is normal.  But an upgrade scheme will serve to take second hand models off the market.  So someone looking to upgrade, either up the range or to an alternative product, would look to sell his existing amp, hence putting second hand product on the market.  However, anyone who upgrades, is effectively keeping his amp and removing potential second hand stock for a number of years.  The rules of supply and demand apply.  Also, some have mentioned the Pro models being more expensive, this puzzles me a bit, as the Expert and Pro prices at launch are more or less identical in the UK, but if true, higher new prices will bolster second hand prices.  I did have a quick look around, and did not find much evidence of a massive drop in second-hand values, indeed, looking at the for sale section on this forum, it has been slim picking recently.   I might be wrong, and if there is evidence of this I will stand corrected.   This issue might be different in different markets / countries of course.
There is a flip side to this, if you are a D200 owner and values have plummeted, this is bad, but if you want to move to a D400, your companion is now a bargain.  It is an ill wind that blows no good…..
I do understand that the upgrade scheme does look very different from the perspective of different models.  The D800 to 1000 Pro upgrade looks like an absolute bargain I think, but in comparison, the D200 to 220 Pro, although arguably still worthwhile, for sure does not have the compelling value of the 800 to 1000 Pro.   I understand how incredibly annoying AIR, Devialet’s communication and other issues have been, if you have the D200, which appears to offer the lowest value upgrade this is annoying too.  I get this.  So it’s a mixed bag, but perhaps not quite as bad as might be indicated in some posts in this thread.  But if you have lost faith in the Devialet brand and want to move on, I understand and respect that.

Great post. I don't have a very high opinion of Devialet as they treat their customers with total contempt if you ask me. However and it is a big however my D200 is an amazing piece of kit. I have no desire to upgrade as I stretched myself to the limit with the 200 and my new speakers, and to be honest I am more than happy with the set up. How Devialet get away with the abomination that is AIR is down to us the customers not having the time or inclination to challenge them.........trust me I have thought about it. But again it's hard to be really unhappy when you think you have the finest set up you have ever had. Not sure I would ever give them another penny.

As for the upgrade I could go to D400 or D220 Pro and would not have a clue which would give the biggest improvement

[Confused]

The Expert has the ‘EVO platform’, the D-Premier does not.  It is the EVO platform that allows ‘constant improvement via free, regular updates, for ever improved features and performance.’  The point here being is that the EVO platform exists on the Expert range and continues on the Pro, it is logical therefore to conclude that new features offered for the Pro will also work on the Expert, streamer board excepted.

Great post from Confused as usual. (Sorry, no bonus points, you've got far too many already )

I wonder to what extent EVO will be the basis of future developments, after they add the 'Devialet OS'?  I got the impression it was going to run on the streamer board, but perhaps the term 'streamer board' is just convenient, and could really become the central processing hub on the Pro range. To my mind, adding 'an OS' could potentially signify a change in direction of features being added there rather than through EVO.  But I don't understand D hardware enough - maybe the DSP stuff always comes under the EVO banner, and connections to the outside world come under the 'OS' banner?

Right now my hunch is this pro range may be a bigger design change than previously, and so supporting the old line with new features will become more difficult. Also there's the question of which platform the firmware gets optimised for - will each range get equal attention or is there a chance the Pro's will take priority? I.e. Make it sound great on the Pros and then use the same code/algorithms on the older generation, which may or may not sound as good.

You could well be right regarding Devialet OS, time will tell.  For what it's worth, my hunch is that the new 'streamer board' will be a bit rubbish, and for many the best option for both functionality and sound quality will be to plug something else into your Devialet, like an mR, Aurender, Melco, or dare I say it, simply stick with AIR.  I actually suspect that I will not even bother to fit the streamer board into my Pro as it will not offer anything I need.  I might be wrong, again time will tell .......

[octaviars]

The Expert has the ‘EVO platform’, the D-Premier does not.  It is the EVO platform that allows ‘constant improvement via free, regular updates, for ever improved features and performance.’  The point here being is that the EVO platform exists on the Expert range and continues on the Pro, it is logical therefore to conclude that new features offered for the Pro will also work on the Expert, streamer board excepted.

Great post from Confused as usual. (Sorry, no bonus points, you've got far too many already )

I wonder to what extent EVO will be the basis of future developments, after they add the 'Devialet OS'?  I got the impression it was going to run on the streamer board, but perhaps the term 'streamer board' is just convenient, and could really become the central processing hub on the Pro range. To my mind, adding 'an OS' could potentially signify a change in direction of features being added there rather than through EVO.  But I don't understand D hardware enough - maybe the DSP stuff always comes under the EVO banner, and connections to the outside world come under the 'OS' banner?

Right now my hunch is this pro range may be a bigger design change than previously, and so supporting the old line with new features will become more difficult. Also there's the question of which platform the firmware gets optimised for - will each range get equal attention or is there a chance the Pro's will take priority?

This is to me one of the problems with the upgrade that we really dont know what we get or can expect of the streamerboard. Some say they dont care about this as they run other solutions but to me if I pay to get my D400 upgraded in this cost Devialet have included the streamerboard and then I want it to be a nice feature that is something useful.......ROON 

[NickB]

Had the wrong adviser then didn't you.

Why should you expect 50% return, the only reason Naim stuff sells for so much is the amount of people brainwashed in to thinking it sounds good.

Most of the posts here about the value of second hand HiFi strike me as childish, so why shouldn't I be condescending.

[AllenB]

Had the wrong adviser then didn't you.

Why should you expect 50% return, the only reason Naim stuff sells for so much is the amount of people brainwashed in to thinking it sounds good.

Most of the posts here about the value of second hand HiFi strike me as childish, so why shouldn't I be condescending.

Well your last sentence says it all, I need say no more.

[Antoine]

EVO is nothing but a marketing term which may or may not have been around in the time of the D-Premier (can't remember). The V5 hardware platform didn't change much besides the new DUET (which I believe means Devialet USB, Ethernet, Toslink) card and with it came more DSP processing power. It's that that extra capacity made SAM, RAM etc. possible.

The new OS card will probably be a drop in replacement for the current DUET card and/or AIR WiFi card. We already learned that the PSU changed to support PLC (powerline communications like in Phantom/Dialog). One reason (except for the obvious one that Devialet want everyone to upgrade) for no backwards compatibility with this streaming card is the lack of PLC suppory but I can't really see why it wouldn't work without PLC or could be made to do so. Again I really don't believe there is a real reason except Devialet not wanting us to install the new card in the old line.

I don't believe the basic workings of the amp are changing much with the new OS/streamer board. So the new card will run in parallel with the current controller subsystems which control the functions other than streaming like the PSU. aDH, the D-amp etc. It's likely the OS card it is nothing but an upgraded/more powerful system on module (SoM) now having the capacity and capabilities to run some Linux distribution, probably the same they're using for Phantom/Dialog. I think it's logical to assume Devialet would want to manage only one such distribution supporting both (and any future) platforms.

If we're lucky Devialet will also upgrade some of the other components currently on the DUET card like the XMOS USB solution and/or it's isolation from the rest of the amp or the way it's output interfaces to the DAC subsystem. I don't believe there will be any additional in-/outputs since that would require a different holes in the copper plate holding the connectors.