Is the Phantom ready for prime time?

[dogbait]

I just picked up a pair of Silver Phantoms + Dialog and gave them a spin yesterday.

Being a bit of a networking egg head in my day job I'm not big on WiFi for everything and have the house wired with Ethernet. I hooked the Dialog and Phantoms to the network and turned them on.

It took two attempts for Spark to find the first Phantom. The second one needed resetting before it appeared. After that I was able to create a stereo pair but Spark hung on the step 'Completed - Let's play some music'.

One opening it again it rather infuriatingly requested that I run the whole setup again. Spark couldn't find the Dialog or Phantoms at this point which required resetting all three units before they'd show.

After this I was finally was able to create a stereo pair.

Played a bit of music using Spark to confirm all was good (sounded very good indeed) before enabling the optical input on Dialog which is going to an Apple Airport Express. Music seemed to sound a little better than via Spark (might be me imagining it though) but one big issue was an occasional crackling noise from the Phantoms.

After some Googling it seems this is a known issue with the Dialog's latest firmware and that Deviate are working on a fix. In the meantime Devialet recommend using the Phantom's optical instead.

Did that and things finally sounded perfect. I know f1eng reported issues with long term audio playback via Phantom. I was able to play audio for a good 6+ hours without problem.

Compared to my Devialet 120 + KEF Reference 1 speakers the Phantoms trounce them in terms of bass capability. They do seem to lack a little finesse in the midrange and treble though. The transitions from treble to midrange and bass are more abrupt. Have a feeling the frequency response of each driver won't overlap as smoothly as on a high quality conventional speaker.

That said, hardware wise these things seem incredibly well engineered. Software wise though seriously flaky.

Being a software engineer myself I can understand why (good software takes a lot of time and money to write) but I am a tad disappointed with how beta the whole product feels.

Is my experience unusual or do others here find Dialog/Spark + Phantom a bit of a buggy mess?

[martinskeem]

Totally agree. audio companies seem to totally underestimate the complexity and importance of developing software that "just works". I've said it before, but I wish devialet would focus on hardware, a robust wireless signal (e.g. a dedicated proprietary network) and solid support for 3rd party streamers (auto switch, volume presets, an optical connection that actually works etc, stable Spotify connect, AirPlay etc). Either that or they need to reallocate some marketing spend to engineering :-)


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[dogbait]

It's a pity. Because when it works it's incredible.

For example as a stereo pair streaming via Bluetooth to one speaker automatically sent the other channel of the audio stream to the other speaker. Little touches like that are brilliant.

Sadly opening Spark again this afternoon is showing me the 'Do you have Dialog?' setup screen again *sigh*.

Think I'll keep one Phantom as a dumb single speaker and be returning the other speaker and Dialog unit. Damn pity.

As an aside what's with the heat on this Dialog unit? You'd think they'd stuck an Itanium processor in there - the rubber is actually deforming along one of the vents!

Anyways, enough complaining - off to (try to) listen to some music.

[martinskeem]

All said, it is solid for me, bar the optical input in the dialogue. I have wired the dialogue and placed it within 2m of the speakers and the phantoms on a dedicated wireless network. It works and I probably reset once per quarter. So if you don't mind tinkering a little, it can become robust. Devialet has also promised a fix for the broken optical input


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[Lolo90]

Agree completely that this is great hardware constrained by poor software. The result is a product that is only suitable for early adopters with some networking knowledge and willingness to follow forums to see how to resolve basic problems.  

Being an early adopter and having experience many technology launches I'd say my experience with Devialet is the exact opposite of my experience with Sonos (having owned Sonos since the day it was released over a decade ago). Sonos has always made good, but not great hardware.  But they've made bulletproof software from day 1. As a result, I have recommend Sonos to dozens of people with varying amount of technical 'know-how' who ended up buying. With Devialet I basically tell everyone to wait to see if they can ever get the software side figured out unless they have the patience and time to tinker with it.

I do hope they can figure it out. The fact that they waste their time on Spark instead of outsourcing that so they can focus on networking issues is strange. Having recently left Sonos for Roon with Rasberry Pi and various other hardware as endpoints, Spark is just useless except for of course having to re-do the setup every once in a while.

[dogbait]

Quick update.

I disconnected the Phantoms from the network switch and restarted. The system started using Powerline as its communication medium instead.

Seems much more reliable.

On a hunch I looked at my networking switch manual and noticed Dell enable Green Ethernet features which can cause problems with some gear. I also disabled Storm Control on the switch which I guess could interfere with any type of broadcasted UDP traffic (which streaming audio usually is).

What I wouldn't give for a simple dumb networking switch...

Anyways, following those two changes things seem pretty reliable (so far). Will keep using the system and see how it goes.

I do see some mentions here asking why Devialet don't use a 3rd party solution for their software and drop Spark entirely. If they did that they would lose control of how their products are used and the end user experience.
I don't want to delve into my own background but speaking from experience it really is key to own your whole technology stack as much as possible. Otherwise you're at the mercy of your software partners whims and wants.

Sometimes this does result in inferior pieces in your product than if you say integrated a superior 3rd party library or application. In the long run, not owning the consumer facing software which integrates with their products would leave Devialet at a significant disadvantage. And in the long run, with enough cash, they can hire the developers they need to get Spark to a level of polish which the hardware already possesses.

I just hope they don't alienate early adopters in the process with mediocre software. They have to iterate very fast because I swear, if I see Spark asking me to re-run setup one more time I'm gonna be returning this stuff - cool as it is nobody who can afford this gear can afford to waste a whole day messing with it!

[Erwinh]

I found setting up the Phantom's and the Dialog was as easy as can be. Works flawlessly straight from the beginning. Including the remote. Got the branches a couple of days later and het to set up the whole thing again. Took me no more than 5 minutes. I am a complete noob on wifi or internet. But i found the whole set up easy as can be. Spark can be a little better I think, but it works, and the sound is incredible. I enjoy music (on Tidal) again!

[angenet]

Quick update.

I disconnected the Phantoms from the network switch and restarted. The system started using Powerline as its communication medium instead.

Seems much more reliable.

On a hunch I looked at my networking switch manual and noticed Dell enable Green Ethernet features which can cause problems with some gear. I also disabled Storm Control on the switch which I guess could interfere with any type of broadcasted UDP traffic (which streaming audio usually is).

What I wouldn't give for a simple dumb networking switch...

Anyways, following those two changes things seem pretty reliable (so far). Will keep using the system and see how it goes.

I do see some mentions here asking why Devialet don't use a 3rd party solution for their software and drop Spark entirely. If they did that they would lose control of how their products are used and the end user experience.
I don't want to delve into my own background but speaking from experience it really is key to own your whole technology stack as much as possible. Otherwise you're at the mercy of your software partners whims and wants.

Sometimes this does result in inferior pieces in your product than if you say integrated a superior 3rd party library or application. In the long run, not owning the consumer facing software which integrates with their products would leave Devialet at a significant disadvantage. And in the long run, with enough cash, they can hire the developers they need to get Spark to a level of polish which the hardware already possesses.

I just hope they don't alienate early adopters in the process with mediocre software. They have to iterate very fast because I swear, if I see Spark asking me to re-run setup one more time I'm gonna be returning this stuff - cool as it is nobody who can afford this gear can afford to waste a whole day messing with it!

Hello
Glad to read from you and to know that somebody else is having the network problem with the phantoms..

I have got four silver phantoms, two downstair as stereo, one in solo in bedroom and another in solo in the study...

I decided to go wire , despite having a very decent wifi network made of two ubiquiti UAP-AC Pro at home ...Two switches including the managed Dlink DGS-1210 -10 ports..

The system is quite unstable with frequent disconnection from the network... when I stream any online source (radio, Qobuz, Tidal)...the system will play for 15 mn then stop.. then start to play again after 3 min.. and when I'm frustrated, I will unplug dialog and replug it and start over etc... on a single day, the system can stop at least 10 times...

So clearly, something on my network is preventing the speakers/dialog to remain connected permanently... I checked and disabled the firewall on the router... and no improvement... I read with high interest your post about disabling the  "green features" on network devices and have now disabled the power saving mode from the DLink managed switch and will see..

So please do share you tests and if by experience and by your background you come across something tha thelp, please let us know...

Thx

[dogbait]

I have got four silver phantoms, two downstair as stereo, one in solo in bedroom and another in solo in the study...

I decided to go wire , despite having a very decent wifi network made of two ubiquiti UAP-AC Pro at home ...Two switches including the managed Dlink DGS-1210 -10 ports..

The system is quite unstable with frequent disconnection from the network... when I stream any online source (radio, Qobuz, Tidal)...the system will play for 15 mn then stop.. then start to play again after 3 min.. and when I'm frustrated, I will unplug dialog and replug it and start over etc... on a single day, the system can stop at least 10 times...

That's a lot of Phantoms you have! Are they all wired to the same network switch?

Yep, recommend disabling Green features (for now).
Also noticed your switch has something called SafeGuard which blocks UDP/Broadcast/Multicast flooding, disable that too.

Save/Reboot the switch and see how it goes!

[angenet]

I have got four silver phantoms, two downstair as stereo, one in solo in bedroom and another in solo in the study...

I decided to go wire , despite having a very decent wifi network made of two ubiquiti UAP-AC Pro at home ...Two switches including the managed Dlink DGS-1210 -10 ports..

The system is quite unstable with frequent disconnection from the network... when I stream any online source (radio, Qobuz, Tidal)...the system will play for 15 mn then stop.. then start to play again after 3 min.. and when I'm frustrated, I will unplug dialog and replug it and start over etc... on a single day, the system can stop at least 10 times...

That's a lot of Phantoms you have! Are they all wired to the same network switch?

Yep, recommend disabling Green features (for now).
Also noticed your switch has something called SafeGuard which blocks UDP/Broadcast/Multicast flooding, disable that too.

Save/Reboot the switch and see how it goes!

Hello again

Yes,  i have to get rid of some of my Sonos and amp, speaker to offset the cost of the phantoms... very proud of my devices.. the network issues are the only setback...

I have also disabled the safeguard engine on the switch.

The problem I have got starts from the very beginning.. as my house is located in non cable area... and ADSL was very slow ( max of 3 Mbs)..
I then setup a Point to point link using two Ubiquiti antennas with my friend who live in a VM cable area 1 mile away... The link is strong (99% permanent) and I can now get 100 Mbs in the house..

So the virgin Media router is located at my friend house and from the receptive antenna of the P2P, I have got the DGS-1210 managed switch downstair...two of the Phantoms are connected to the DGS-1210.. which  also feed a Netgear GS108PE Gigabit switch... the two phantoms upstairs are connected to the GS108PE.

Ideally, I would have preferred all the phantoms to be wired directly to the DGS-1210.. But that mean running many cables through the house which is not an option now...

I have discussed the issue with Devialet and was told to use the Airport Extreme instead...but can't see where to fit the airport in my current settings..Will considered the Airport extreme if I can figure out the best way to use it in my house....any suggestion will be greatly appreciated.

I have now disabled all extras from the DGS-1210 and will see.


Thx