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Phantom's Toslink is not ready for live musical instruments
#1
Hi all,

I've recently tried connecting my synthesizer, a Korg Kronos, to the Phantom via the Toslink port. 

To my surprise, the lag on the Phantom side is definitely noticeable and given the necessary human trigger (i.e. pressing a key to hear a sound), there is no way how to deal with this issue on the keyboard player side. According to support, "Phantom has a constant latency of 80ms to 160ms " and "the only solution is to wait for a futur update on our side to decrease the lag." A real pity because the sound is fairly decent.
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#2
It probably wasn't designed for that kind of thing as it works fine with CD player or Television plugged into it. I actually have my computer through my Phantom using the Toslink.
Synology DS215 NAS (2x WD RED 1Tb) > Virgin Superhub 3 > HP Pavilion X360 laptop > Phantom Reactor 600 > JRiver MC25 > JRemote > A&K AK70mkii DAP > Supra Cat8 Ethernet cable > Sony WH-1000XM4 > jar of cream v2
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#3
I'd probably agree with you IF the Phantom's latency was common knowledge.
However, this is unfortunately not the case. Plus it does not help that Phantom's whitepaper speaks about zero latency in the context of SAM.

What explains the latency via toslink anyway ?


P.S. Device-triggered audio source is no problem. My computer's connected via Bluetooth to Phantom, no (noticeable) delay even when watching Netflix.
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#4
(30-Jun-2016, 23:32)Geo Wrote: I'd probably agree with you IF the Phantom's latency was common knowledge.
However, this is unfortunately not the case. Plus it does not help that Phantom's whitepaper speaks about zero latency in the context of SAM.

What explains the latency via toslink anyway ?


P.S. Device-triggered audio source is no problem. My computer's connected via Bluetooth to Phantom, no (noticeable) delay even when watching Netflix.
I still don't understand the different experience of different users. My Phantoms connected to my Sony  tv via toslink show a huge latency
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#5
(01-Jul-2016, 06:28)Waldstorch Wrote:
(30-Jun-2016, 23:32)Geo Wrote: I'd probably agree with you IF the Phantom's latency was common knowledge.
However, this is unfortunately not the case. Plus it does not help that Phantom's whitepaper speaks about zero latency in the context of SAM.

What explains the latency via toslink anyway ?


P.S. Device-triggered audio source is no problem. My computer's connected via Bluetooth to Phantom, no (noticeable) delay even when watching Netflix.
I still don't understand the different experience of different users. My Phantoms connected to my Sony  tv via toslink show a huge latency

Strange if there is different latency on different inputs. Using DSP to correct a loudspeaker will always introduce latency. It will be impossible to correct the time domain of a loudspeaker without affecting ...time... as you can only delay the parts of the frequency range that plays too early.  If Bluetooth has less delay than Toslink it means there is less correction and different sound  than via Toslink. Bluetooth transfer is lossy anyway so maybe Devialet is thinking it does not matter as much.
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#6
You appear to be right: via Bluetooth, there is actually the same lag. This time I've connected my iPad 2 to Phantom, with a software synthesizer app. Interesting though that Netflix works without any noticeable lag.

So basically what you are saying is that Devialet's engineer are unlikely to come up with a fix for this ?
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#7
(03-Jul-2016, 17:17)Geo Wrote: You appear to be right: via Bluetooth, there is actually the same lag. This time I've connected my iPad 2 to Phantom, with a software synthesizer app. Interesting though that Netflix works without any noticeable lag.

So basically what you are saying is that Devialet's engineer are unlikely to come up with a fix for this ?

If Neflix works with no lag the video is delayed somewhere too.

Unfortuntely no, the 'fix' for Phantom is actually to use delay to have the speaker appear as a point source. The best walk-through I've come across is this YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peQq6BX6jio

Without the time correction (i.e. only amplitude correction) Phantom would not sound as good as it does. It is possible to achieve close to zero lag with amplitude-only correction, but this sort of defeats the main purpose of the speaker; playback of pre recorded music.. Time domain correction is not the only delay in Phantom. As the speaker is a complete digital system there will also be buffering of the signal to lower jitter and such.
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Devialetless!
Roon, ROCK/Audiolense XO/Music on NAS/EtherRegen/RoPieee/USPCB/ISORegen/USPCB/Sound Devices USBPre2/Tannoy GOLD 8
250 Pro CI, MicroRendu(1.4), Mutec MC-3+USB
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#8
(03-Jul-2016, 19:22)ogs Wrote: Unfortuntely no, the 'fix' for Phantom is actually to use delay to have the speaker appear as a point source. The best walk-through I've come across is this YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peQq6BX6jio

[...] It is possible to achieve close to zero lag with amplitude-only correction, but this sort of defeats the main purpose of the speaker; playback of pre recorded music. [...]

Thanks a lot for this interesting insight! Unfortunately, I don't see myself using a delay for my fingers triggering the keys to make the speaker appear on time.

However, your remark on amplitude-only correction sounds interesting. Idea Would it then be possible to implement this as a sort of "direct in" switch for the toslink port in the Spark software ?
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#9
(03-Jul-2016, 23:08)Geo Wrote:
(03-Jul-2016, 19:22)ogs Wrote: Unfortuntely no, the 'fix' for Phantom is actually to use delay to have the speaker appear as a point source. The best walk-through I've come across is this YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peQq6BX6jio

[...] It is possible to achieve close to zero lag with amplitude-only correction, but this sort of defeats the main purpose of the speaker; playback of pre recorded music. [...]

Thanks a lot for this interesting insight! Unfortunately, I don't see myself using a delay for my fingers triggering the keys to make the speaker appear on time.

However, your remark on amplitude-only correction sounds interesting. Idea Would it then be possible to implement this as a sort of "direct in" switch for the toslink port in the Spark software ?

Delayed fingers... that's a thought! Big Grin
Considering the fact that Devialet has a rather long list of unfixed issues related to both Phantom and Expert I doubt your idea of a "direct in" would have a chance. The only way to find out is to ask them directly...

EDIT sorry, I see from your first post you have already contacted Devialet about this..
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Devialetless!
Roon, ROCK/Audiolense XO/Music on NAS/EtherRegen/RoPieee/USPCB/ISORegen/USPCB/Sound Devices USBPre2/Tannoy GOLD 8
250 Pro CI, MicroRendu(1.4), Mutec MC-3+USB
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#10
(04-Jul-2016, 08:00)ogs Wrote: Delayed fingers... that's a thought! Big Grin
Considering the fact that Devialet has a rather long list of unfixed issues related to both Phantom and Expert I doubt your idea of a "direct in" would have a chance. The only way to find out is to ask them directly...

EDIT sorry, I see from your first post you have already contacted Devialet about this..

Yes, a mind twisting thought indeed Big Grin

I've contacted Devialet support again with a feature request for a software-side "direct in" switch (pointing to this thread). She said she'd forward the feedback to the engineers in charge of development.
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