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Question of transparency - Help or Harm?
#21
(06-Dec-2015, 19:04)thumb5 Wrote: .....
Not surprisingly, then, the discussion on the thread seems to have focused on whether being more transparent would help Devialet become a company we would like as customers -- but that's a different question entirely.

......

On the other hand, if they're continually using revenue from current products to fund a push into ever higher-volume markets, there's not much incentive to have high levels of customer service and satisfaction for their lower-volume products.  After all, they've already sold them, and any future sales of these products will be a small and ever-decreasing proportion of their revenue.

.....


I think part of the dissatisfaction some us (myself included) have expressed with Devialet arises from the tension between what we expect from a company selling relatively expensive audio equipment, and the behaviour of a start-up company with a stated goal to be in high-volume markets.  Remember: "One day, everyone will own a Devialet?"  Well, it won't be an Original d'Atelier, that's for sure.

To put it another way, and rather more bluntly: I feel that Devialet is very important to me, but that I am now very unimportant to Devialet.

.....

Excellent discussions all.  And I'm biting my tongue from making any comments so as not to influence the direction of the discussion in appropriately.  I can with some confidence that at least some in Devialet leadership will read these comments.  And I hope it will be to the good in the end. 

But from my own observations that is not informed by any outsiders: 

1.  I do note that your comments above are impactful for me, such as the line, "I feel that Devialet is very important to me, but that I am now very unimportant to Devialet."   I feel quite confident that they do not intend that at all.  But I'm not sure what is happening internally that prevents them from addressing the factors that lead you (among others) to feel this.  Growing pains perhaps. 

In leadership processes, I have learned that if some of the greatest supporters of Devialet (presumably that's evidenced by our activities on this board) feel this way, then that sense will inevitably leak out to the rest of the purchasing public.  

2. My perception is that they are expanding to luxury consumers than hifi enthusiast.  Phantom seem to be that effort. For that to happen, it must have cachet, be easy to use, have cachet, perform well, and priced to a certain point that is attainable.   If anything, relative to the rest of the Devialet line, the Phantom seem to be underpriced.  But if they sell enough, it can exceed the rest of the Devialet's line.  (Yes, I have a knack of stating the obvious in a self evident sentence but you know what I mean.)  I am conjecturing here.... Confused

I am increasing in my respect of Devialet's technical vision as I continue to think more about their products.
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#22
Roon, along with their forums, has really changed the way I think of how a 'modern' company can be run - they're like a breath of fresh air.

They engage with their users to a level I've never seen before, and take user feedback seriously, while also holding a firm line on things they really believe in as the core of their product/ethos.  So far on the whole its been extremely successful, although as would be excepted in some cases it's made their lives harder as they are living very publicly and its meant a bit of flak in a few cases where any other company could have hidden away.

I also think a lot of the Chord Hugo's success, and the models since, were largely down to Rob Watts engaging with users.

By calling systems 'Expert' Devialet acknowledge that users are probably somewhat more demanding, yet they really don't engage or take onboard user feedback very well.

Those that know Devialet better as a company seem to consider them still genuinely interested in looking after their Expert customers even if it doesn't seem obvious at the moment, so following these examples should definitely be on their radar.

I guess it takes the right people and attitude, but it really can work wonders for the brands. I think users then have a really strong allegiance to the company if they feel they've somehow been involved or 'let in' to the thought processes behind certain decisions, or even just listened to.

One other thing that has been used as an 'excuse' several times in my communication with Devialet, is that their updates, and software like Air or iOS app, are free.

I put it to them that they should discuss things like this with the community.  Perhaps some users would be happy to pay for advanced features that not many people want?  Its a complex issue I know, and I for one really like their model of 'free updates for life', but if in reality this just isn't sustainable, perhaps thats something to think/talk about.  Maybe for another thread….

In the meantime someone should come forward and clear up the Air situation regardless.  Just stand up and say 'this is where we're at, this is the plan'. Man up and deal with it and show that you're a technologically advanced company that can get around such issues, even if they're difficult.

>>> 1st Place Award: Devialet, last decades most disappointing technology purchase.  <<<

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#23
Still have to say that with Windows 10 Air is perfect, and if the difference for me was Windows10 as it did not work in Win7 or Win8.1 - where is the fault in Air or in Windows/Mac operating systems?
UK kit - Technics SP10 - Technics EPA-501  - AT33SA - NUC5i3 - W10 - Roonserver - Roon AIR - Devialet 1000 Pro CI - Blue Jeans Speaker Cable (0.5 metre each side) - Magico S5

Spain kit - NUC7i5 - W10  - Roonserver - Roon AIR - Devialet D250 Pro CI - Blue Jeans Speaker Cable - Ergo IX speakers
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#24
(07-Dec-2015, 14:06)NickB Wrote: Still have to say that with Windows 10 Air is perfect, and if the difference for me was Windows10 as it did not work in Win7 or Win8.1 - where is the fault in Air or in Windows/Mac operating systems?

Not wishing to drag things too off-topic, but in general, applications are written to run on specific operating systems - as advertised at release or according to maintenance updates.

If an application doesn't run correctly on the operating system it's designed for, then the fault is with the Application not the operating system.  Whether the OS is the cause or contributor to its poor performance is another matter.  If there were no other 'virtual sound cards' on the market that worked reliably, then perhaps one could argue that the affected OS's were incapable of performing that task, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Products need constant updates to work around OS issues, bug, changes etc.  If Air is relying on an aspect of an operating system that doesn't do what it needs reliably, then it hasn't been designed properly.

Simply saying it works for you on Windows 10 in your setup, while reassuring, doesn't mean the Application works as intended/advertised or that the OS can be blamed.

If it's true that the Windows 10 version works reliably for everyone, then thats a success and perhaps they've cracked it for that OS and that's great news.  If they're still saying Air is compatible with Mac's or other windows versions however, and there are issues, then it still needs fixing for the other OS's.

So, coming back to transparency....  It's one thing to say 'Air works reliably on Win10, and is provided as-is for other operating systems where playback reliability can't be guaranteed'.  Fair enough, you either takes your chance outside of those restraints, or you consider the feature not available to you and workaround it, or move to another product.  But saying it works and kind of hoping people are OK with it when they buy it and it doesn't, isn't being open and transparent, among other things…..

>>> 1st Place Award: Devialet, last decades most disappointing technology purchase.  <<<

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#25
(07-Dec-2015, 14:46)Hifi_swlon Wrote:
(07-Dec-2015, 14:06)NickB Wrote: Still have to say that with Windows 10 Air is perfect, and if the difference for me was Windows10 as it did not work in Win7 or Win8.1 - where is the fault in Air or in Windows/Mac operating systems?

Not wishing to drag things too off-topic, but in general, applications are written to run on specific operating systems - as advertised at release or according to maintenance updates.

If an application doesn't run correctly on the operating system it's designed for, then the fault is with the Application not the operating system.  Whether the OS is the cause or contributor to its poor performance is another matter.  If there were no other 'virtual sound cards' on the market that worked reliably, then perhaps one could argue that the affected OS's were incapable of performing that task, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Products need constant updates to work around OS issues, bug, changes etc.  If Air is relying on an aspect of an operating system that doesn't do what it needs reliably, then it hasn't been designed properly.

Simply saying it works for you on Windows 10 in your setup, while reassuring, doesn't mean the Application works as intended/advertised or that the OS can be blamed.

If it's true that the Windows 10 version works reliably for everyone, then thats a success and perhaps they've cracked it for that OS and that's great news.  If they're still saying Air is compatible with Mac's or other windows versions however, and there are issues, then it still needs fixing for the other OS's.

So, coming back to transparency....  It's one thing to say 'Air works reliably on Win10, and is provided as-is for other operating systems where playback reliability can't be guaranteed'.  Fair enough, you either takes your chance outside of those restraints, or you consider the feature not available to you and workaround it, or move to another product.  But saying it works and kind of hoping people are OK with it when they buy it and it doesn't, isn't being open and transparent, among other things…..
I don't understand some people here. If you are lucky, you can go and buy Dan Agostino preamp/amp combination @ dealer discount for just 80.000€. And there will be no firmware or any other upgrade EVER!! If You buy LE200 for 7.000€ everybody is asking for upgrade on daily bases. Two firmware upgrades per year and all that upgrades since Devialet 170 aren't enough?  AIR? Air streaming is, for my oppinion just first aid for computer streaming. Using USB with dedicated music computer source is way to go. And IMHO today is 2015. almost 2016. Every room in the house should have a Gigabit wired connection (I have it in the kitchen too!) So, connect your Devialet with cable, and enjoy that AIR if you want. My AIR works perfect for 2 years and I use it every weekend for parties, streeming Internet radio or YouTube songs. Devialet is the most transparent of all high end companies I have dealt in my 30 years of benig a part of this hoby. Regards, Hrky
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#26
(07-Dec-2015, 14:46)Hifi_swlon Wrote:
(07-Dec-2015, 14:06)NickB Wrote: Still have to say that with Windows 10 Air is perfect, and if the difference for me was Windows10 as it did not work in Win7 or Win8.1 - where is the fault in Air or in Windows/Mac operating systems?

Not wishing to drag things too off-topic, but in general, applications are written to run on specific operating systems - as advertised at release or according to maintenance updates.

If an application doesn't run correctly on the operating system it's designed for, then the fault is with the Application not the operating system.  Whether the OS is the cause or contributor to its poor performance is another matter.  If there were no other 'virtual sound cards' on the market that worked reliably, then perhaps one could argue that the affected OS's were incapable of performing that task, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Products need constant updates to work around OS issues, bug, changes etc.  If Air is relying on an aspect of an operating system that doesn't do what it needs reliably, then it hasn't been designed properly.

Simply saying it works for you on Windows 10 in your setup, while reassuring, doesn't mean the Application works as intended/advertised or that the OS can be blamed.

If it's true that the Windows 10 version works reliably for everyone, then thats a success and perhaps they've cracked it for that OS and that's great news.  If they're still saying Air is compatible with Mac's or other windows versions however, and there are issues, then it still needs fixing for the other OS's.

So, coming back to transparency....  It's one thing to say 'Air works reliably on Win10, and is provided as-is for other operating systems where playback reliability can't be guaranteed'.  Fair enough, you either takes your chance outside of those restraints, or you consider the feature not available to you and workaround it, or move to another product.  But saying it works and kind of hoping people are OK with it when they buy it and it doesn't, isn't being open and transparent, among other things…..

Actually most (all) people running Win10 seem to have a perfect experience with AIR and using AIR 2.1.3 which was written before Win10 was released. So not sure how they could write it to work with Win10 it just works with it. This makes me think that there are other problems than just AIR at work here.
UK kit - Technics SP10 - Technics EPA-501  - AT33SA - NUC5i3 - W10 - Roonserver - Roon AIR - Devialet 1000 Pro CI - Blue Jeans Speaker Cable (0.5 metre each side) - Magico S5

Spain kit - NUC7i5 - W10  - Roonserver - Roon AIR - Devialet D250 Pro CI - Blue Jeans Speaker Cable - Ergo IX speakers
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#27
Yeah, if one's prepared to ignore the occasional BSOD.

Also Windows 10 is not supported by Devialet, the irony!

If there's other problems at work here it's Devialet's job to find these and either solve these problems or, if they can't, find workarounds for them.

(PS. Personally I've never had issues with AIR but it's clear that that's not very common so why would it be OK or why would I defend Devialet because of this..)
PS Audio P3, Shunyata ΞTRON Alpha Digital and HC/Furutech power cables, Paul Hynes SR7EHD-MR4, DIY Roon Server & Roon Endpoint running AudioLinux Headless, Phasure Lush^2 USB cable, Audioquest Diamond RJ/E ethernet, Uptone Audio etherREGEN, Mutec MC-3+ USB, Shunyata ΞTRON Anaconda Digital XLR AES/EBU, Devialet Expert 250 Pro CI, Nordost Tyr Reference LS cables, Von Schweikert VR-5 SE Anniversary Edition, Anti-Mode Dual Core 2.0, JL Audio Fathom F112. More detail here.

The Netherlands
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#28
Actually, I think I can drag the comments from Nick and others fully back on topic. I use AIR and Windows 10. Take last weekend as an example, on Sunday AIR worked absolutely 100% flawlessly, this included me "multi-tasking" on the same Windows PC that was in AIR streaming duties. However, on the Saturday it was ok most of the time, but occasionally started stuttering, which was easily cured by re-staring AIR. Not a big deal, probably one re-start per hour required on average. On other sections of this forum there have been tips regarding improving performance with AIR, disabling auto updates, windows defender, anti-virus software etc. OK, some of these may help (up until the point your PC is hit by a deadly virus), but it's all a bit trial and error. But why was AIR / Windows 10 problematic one day, but 100% fine the next? Now back on topic, Devialet know all the subtitles of how AIR works, how it interacts with operating systems etc. I am sure that they could provide some feedback, information, guidelines etc. that would help with AIR issues. Something! Anything! This could be on their website, fully under their control. Surely they could do something? I believe the current feedback from Devialet is that "AIR is not compatible with Windows 10". Well that's not much help is it?
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#29
Many people including me (and I'm a Cisco Certified Network Engineer among other things in case you think I'm clueless) have Gigabit fully-wired networks and still have problems. The problem is the AIR application (which Devialet acknowledge) though in some case network issues can cause problems too.

Also it was mentioned earlier that AIR is free. Quite a few people paid for the AIR card in their Experts. I took advantage of the offer back when the Expert was first release in September 2013 of a free AIR card but the retail price was 1000 Euros for the card (and possibly £1000 in the UK). I would not be happy if I was one of the ones who'd paid for it and it not working properly.
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